I can't remember where I read it, so if it was a recent topic forgive this duplicate one.

But I remember reading somewhere on the forum, that Progesterone, taken with E, actually helps increase breast size?  Is this true?  I will be seeing my Endo next month and will have to ask if it'll help in my situation, as my breasts are somewhere between AA and A, and I would like a B cup and some cleavage (I have none) if at all possible, without a BA.  I'm sort of self conscious about my breast size, and I'm hoping to get slightly bigger ones without surgery.  Given my proportions, they could stand to be a little bigger than they are now.

Progetogens will help your breasts mature - without them you can sometimes end up with odd cylynder shaped breasts.

They might not get bigger, but progestogens might help them become fuller.

How long have you been on hormones? It can take a number of years to reach your potential.

For cleavage I would suggest a good wonder bra 

A fuller bust would help...if they filled out more maybe I might actually have some cleavage.  Right now they're so far apart from each other, any bra I try doesn't give me any cleavage.

I've been on HRT for about 2 1/2 yrs now.

Progesterone helps, but not as much if your taking Spiro as your T blocker... spiro interfears with T receptors and also P receptors among other things...

My understanding is that it doesn't contribute much to growth.  E is largely responsible for that.  Prog, as I understand, and as stated by Nicky, will help make your breasts fuller and rounder.  I've also heard that prog isn't something we need to take until such time as our breasts have gone through some development.

Quote from: LynnER on August 05, 2009, 10:00:05 PM
Progesterone helps, but not as much if your taking Spiro as your T blocker... spiro interfears with T receptors and also P receptors among other things...

I stopped taking Spiro after I had my Orchiectomy last fall, so this isn't really an issue AFAIK.

Quote from: Katherine on August 06, 2009, 08:22:06 AM
My understanding is that it doesn't contribute much to growth.  E is largely responsible for that.  Prog, as I understand, and as stated by Nicky, will help make your breasts fuller and rounder.  I've also heard that prog isn't something we need to take until such time as our breasts have gone through some development.

Well, they've been developing for some time, and having them be "fuller" and "rounder" would certainly help things, I think.

I will have to talk to my doctor about it.  Thanks.

Quote from: LynnER on August 05, 2009, 10:00:05 PM
Progesterone helps, but not as much if your taking Spiro as your T blocker... spiro interfears with T receptors and also P receptors among other things...

I would love to know where this came from, if you could cite references.  I'm presently in a "battle" with my health center over this very issue.  As a whole, they will not prescribe progesterone.  Except in special cases, to satisfy the 'harm-reduction model' they operate under.   My personal physician (at this center) explicitly stated that there are no P receptors in genetic male trans persons.  I questioned this statement but was never provided any studies or evidence of this statement.    The topic has been re-introduced to the governing body of my health center (because of my actions), and they are reviewing their policy on administration of progesterone for their MtF patients.  The last word I received,  was that they follow the findings of the WHI (Women's Health Initiative), of which I'm am somewhat ignorant, but have read a few blurbs of, and it does paint an ugly picture.   There are risks to Progesterone, (as well, as about anything, eh?).   Their policies will probably not change, I'm guessing, unless some evidence / studies are found that show benefit to the increased DVT/Cardiovascular/Cancer risks that are evident with Progesterone when used with Estrogen.

Quote from: Fae on August 05, 2009, 08:00:08 PM
I can't remember where I read it, so if it was a recent topic forgive this duplicate one.

But I remember reading somewhere on the forum, that Progesterone, taken with E, actually helps increase breast size?  Is this true?  I will be seeing my Endo next month and will have to ask if it'll help in my situation, as my breasts are somewhere between AA and A, and I would like a B cup and some cleavage (I have none) if at all possible, without a BA.  I'm sort of self conscious about my breast size, and I'm hoping to get slightly bigger ones without surgery.  Given my proportions, they could stand to be a little bigger than they are now.

Sooo,, being long winded... I found myself in this situation, because similarly, my breasts were just a tad bit too small for my satisfaction with the just the results of E and AA's.  They were close, but not close enough, lol.   I read several 'subjective' accounts of breast growth with P on the internet.  I went forward with a Progesterone regimen, in a dosage level that was typically prescribed for trans women..  Within a month my breasts were tender again, like they had been with E, some 6 months prior.  Four months later of being on P, I was a cup size larger.  And, no longer considering a BA.   One less sugery, yay for me.   Except... I won't be on P forever.  Only for 14-16 months, this was a decision I made when starting P.   And the reports vary on if breasts will shrink with the elimination of P from the regimen.  But, in this one case, I would say a definitive yes, for me, that I had breast growth from P, but I can't ascertain that it will 'stick', after I'm off of it in a year.  Ask me in 18 months.

*huggs*,
Melan

Quote from: Melan on August 07, 2009, 08:51:17 PM
Sooo,, being long winded... I found myself in this situation, because similarly, my breasts were just a tad bit too small for my satisfaction with the just the results of E and AA's.  They were close, but not close enough, lol.   I read several 'subjective' accounts of breast growth with P on the internet.  I went forward with a Progesterone regimen, in a dosage level that was typically prescribed for trans women..  Within a month my breasts were tender again, like they had been with E, some 6 months prior.  Four months later of being on P, I was a cup size larger.  And, no longer considering a BA.   One less sugery, yay for me.   Except... I won't be on P forever.  Only for 14-16 months, this was a decision I made when starting P.   And the reports vary on if breasts will shrink with the elimination of P from the regimen.  But, in this one case, I would say a definitive yes, for me, that I had breast growth from P, but I can't ascertain that it will 'stick', after I'm off of it in a year.  Ask me in 18 months.

Thanks Melan!  That sounds really good, I would love to be a cup size bigger, and more rounder/fuller 

From the pics I've seen of tubular breast development, I'd say there are cases where normal looking breasts (fuller, mature shape) is even more pertinent than size.

Heres part of it... I could have been wrong about it being a full on P blocker...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineralocorticoid_receptor
The mineralocorticoid receptor
The receptor is activated by mineralocorticoids such as aldosterone and deoxycorticosterone as well as glucocorticoids, like cortisol and cortison. It also responds to some progestins. Spironolactone and eplerenone are mineralocorticoid receptor antagonists.

Somewhere I had a paper from my doctor that gave more information but I cant find it, but this was coppy pasted from wikipedia.  If I find the paper, or next time I see him I'll see if I can get another copy.

Also <brought up by my doctor>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldactone
Research has also shown that spironolactone can interfere with the effectiveness of antidepressant treatment. The drug is actually (among its other receptor interactions) a mineralocorticoid (MR) antagonist, and has been found to reduce the effectiveness of antidepressant drugs in the treatment of major depression, presumably by interfering with normalization of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis in patients receiving antidepressant therapy. [6]

My new doctor is afraid of injectables... I had been taking both E and P intramuscularly and he took me off the P totally... and reduced me to taking a low dosage of E in tablet form... Actually trying to get me to take horse urine pills (no way in Hades)  I can deffenatly feel the difference of the lower E and having no P in my system... and my breasts are nowhere near as perky as they had been X(

Quote from: Melan on August 07, 2009, 08:51:17 PM
   My personal physician (at this center) explicitly stated that there are no P receptors in genetic male trans persons.

I have no medical background, but I have come across so much information on medical and non-medical sites that indicate males do have progesterone in their systems, and that it is a precursor to testosterone. Doing a Google search for male + progesterone will pull up quite a bit of information.
Many medical personnel who work with trans persons can't seem to agree on the administration of prog for MtF, even though they understand that it is a part of the female hormonal cocktail. As I understand, E and prog aid in breast development.  Also this link to a powerpoint presentation is very informative...
http://www.trans-health.com/displayarticle.php?aid=127

Quote from: Melan on August 07, 2009, 08:51:17 PM
My personal physician (at this center) explicitly stated that there are no P receptors in genetic male trans persons.

Your physician is an idiot! male and female bodies are pretty much identical except for structure influenced mostly by hormones as we already know.

Progesterone, from experience, helps and does a lot, on high dose progesterone I had my breast hurt so much I thought I was having a heart attack :X

Quote from: Myself on August 12, 2009, 07:16:00 AM
Your physician is an idiot!

I wouldn't go that far, but I would say that there aren't enough (or any) studies completed in this area (prescription of progesterone to MtF patients)  to provide CYA to prescribing physicians.   Someday, but not today.  So we make our own battles, mostly fought out on TG forums, such as this one.  I can't goto my physician with opinions, nor can I cite facts, there are none (that relate to positive affects of progesterone on MtF patients), of which are relevant to the progesterone question.

*huggs*,
Melan

Quote from: SilverFang on August 13, 2009, 02:15:30 AM
Yes, still butting in. The only way for you to be missing progesterone receptors is if there were no gene for it. Even if it is on the female chromosome (X), there is no way you could not have it unless you were born with a rare genetic condition in which that gene did not work.

According to current knowledge in genetics, males cannot possibly be lacking any receptors for female proteins, or female protein genes. So he is an idiot.

Cheers,
SilverFloe

Well like you said, they can if they have a rare genetic disease.
Like, giantism is caused because of lack of estrogens for whatever reason, or excessive growth pattern or even excessive growth hormone.

A variation of giantism (usually in males only as in females the chance is reallllllllllly low) is a missing or broken gene of the estrogen receptors.
If that is the case, estrogen pills/injections do not stop giantism and the bones continue to grow until the material bone is created from is consumed, that is called "proliferative exhaustion".

Estrogen actually causes "pre-mature" proliferative exhaustion, then again - since this premature proliferative exhaustion is normal, it is the other proliferative exhaustion which is considered abnormal

Maybe the world had giants after all!

I'd like to point a thought which came across my mind for a bit.
XX has double the receptors for progesterones and estrogens.
It doesn't explain why the breasts grow better, just in case someone came to that conclusion.
As we can see trans from young age have normal growth with normal regimes if not even lower.

We should have more receptors than the estrogen that can flood them anyways.
Another thing to consider is the "disease" that causes giant breasts, I think recorded up to 74 pounds per breast, it's caused by either a lot of estrogen in the body or over-sensitivity.
So apparently increasing amount of estrogen should help, but even better is find ways to increase estrogen sensitivity.

You probably heard of insulin insensetivity and sensitivity or even androgens.
It is well known certain foods, chemicals, lifestyles and etc increase and decreases sensitivity for different compounds in the body.

If anyone feels like it, we should look for ways to increase estrogen sensitivity and post them here or in a new thread over the hormone therapy boards.

Anyone is interested?

Actually after over two years on hormones, the size you are about right now is not going to change much.  An increase in estrogen or adding in progesterone is not going to help much.   BA is probably the only path to bigger breasts.

Progesterone can help in terms of shape with regards to breast size and result in a more natural development, but that it is something that really should come early in HRT, not later.  Even then its no garuntee.

With that being said I know women who have been on progesterone at the same stage you are at, and have had the same issues with development.  But the progesterone did help with body shape. 

Also if you started over the age of 35 HRT is not going to help much in terms of breast development.  Age is probably one of the most important factors, but so is sensitivity to hormones.

I should note, I was on progesterone fairly early into HRT, I have been on HRT about as long as you have, but I was already an A cup at 4 or 5 months, I was getting development without progesterone.  I am now a C cup, and one of those very rare transitioners who is a Tanner Stage V without BA.  But I also started HRT in my late twenties, and from what I know even with younger transitioners (those 18-35), this is unusual.  Most I have known have had problems with development, no matter the age, I have known those who started HRT at 18 have major problems.  It is uncommon for thier to be full development with trans women, if you get beyond a small B its pretty uncommon (maybe 1 in 6).  I am one of the lucky few who has been blessed naturally, but even with me its been a very gradual (and painful) process, but I realize I am lucky to have gone through the process considering who I am.  For me it was 4-5 months from AA to A (I had gynomastasia, and I was an A at periods before transition), then almost a year from A to B, and almost another year to get to C.   

While breast growth is gradual...it did happen for me, but it doesn't happen for most.  Progesterone can help some, maybe contribute to 1/4 a cup size if started early into hrt.  The thing is development is not garunteed, this is why many trans women opt for BA. 

Here are Dr Curtis's comments on Progesterone.
I am concerned about my breast development and was considering starting to take it, but I do find his explanations and arguments against here very persuasive.
http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Medpro-Assets/Progesterone.pdf

- and I feel that his comments on Estrogen dosage are also interesting and worthy of consideration

Very interesting article. I only wish he had commented some on micronized progesterone. Over the years a lot of information that has come out was due to older drugs - but unfortunately, of course, we're a small test body.

Quote from: Fae on August 05, 2009, 08:00:08 PM
But I remember reading somewhere on the forum, that Progesterone, taken with E, actually helps increase breast size?  Is this true? 

My doctor said that when he suggested progesterone to me.  I went on it for about 6 months but it had no effect.  Later I talked to him about it and he said he was disappointed in the results with P and its effect on breast growth.

Julie

Quote from: Steffi on August 31, 2009, 02:24:59 PM
Here are Dr Curtis's comments on Progesterone.
I am concerned about my breast development and was considering starting to take it, but I do find his explanations and arguments against here very persuasive.
http://www.gires.org.uk/assets/Medpro-Assets/Progesterone.pdf

- and I feel that his comments on Estrogen dosage are also interesting and worthy of consideration

thanks for the link Steffi, that sounds very persuasive to me as well and contains some very interesting information. I asked my endo about P early on and he told me it had no appreciable effect and would just be another hormone with the associated risks to have to take. From what I've read here, it seems like the only reliable way to know for sure is to ask a doctor whom you trust and not go by anecdotal evidence which obviously varies widely.

At least this big box of progesterone didn't cost nearly as much as some of the other stuff did.