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Survivors Guilt?

Started by Anonymouse, September 02, 2007, 10:05:24 AM

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Anonymouse

This may sound a little strange.

I started exploring my gender issues in the late 1980's and became friends with a handful of people doing the same. We had lots of fun for a few years but I gradually withdrew from the scene as I began my transition and haven't had much contact with other trans people until about 18 months ago. A few weeks ago I was contacted by one of my old friends who is now in the late stages of HIV and she tells me we are the only ones left. She doesn't expect to see the end of next year.

There were quite a few times when I didn't think I was going to make it and some of the others seemed much stronger than me. I don't really understand why I'm the one that is still here and I find myself feeling guilty.

Does this make sense to anybody? I don't really understand it.

Ann
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lisagurl

Perhaps risky sex without true love leaves guilt depending on how you are conditioned as a child. Transition is a different subject than sexual relations. Caution is needed to live a long full life.
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Nero

Quote from: lisagurl on September 02, 2007, 12:00:44 PM
Perhaps risky sex without true love leaves guilt depending on how you are conditioned as a child. Transition is a different subject than sexual relations. Caution is needed to live a long full life.

Lisa, I don't believe that is what anonymouse is saying at all. Of course transition is different than sexual relations. Some transsexuals lead difficult lives, on the streets, engaged in prostitution to survive, many straight women find solace and acceptance in the gay community. It's common knowledge that the gay community was taken unawares and hit very hard by AIDS in the 80's.
I find your response to Anonymouse dismissive and rude.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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lisagurl

I am sorry if you take my post as rude it was not meant that way. I do believe most sexual relations as a choice. Sex for pleasure and profit always has its price even before AIDS. I lived on food stamps and lived in a tent and did not sell my body, hard work did not pay as well but left no guilt. Perhaps lack knowledge is not an individual's fault but the law does not see it that way. I have sympathy for all those who made unknowing decisions. But guilt comes from knowingly doing something that perhaps you should not.
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buttercup

Hi Ann,

Please don't feel guilty, you are a survivor, don't try to look too hard into it why you are.  :)  The only unfortunate thing is that you have to lose other people that you personally know and that is so hard, but don't, not even for one second, feel guilty.  You have done nothing wrong, you are an innocent person so please don't persecute yourself. 

buttercup  :)

Posted on: September 02, 2007, 05:27:59 PM
Quote from: lisagurl on September 02, 2007, 04:53:59 PM
I am sorry if you take my post as rude it was not meant that way. I do believe most sexual relations as a choice. Sex for pleasure and profit always has its price even before AIDS. I lived on food stamps and lived in a tent and did not sell my body, hard work did not pay as well but left no guilt. Perhaps lack knowledge is not an individual's fault but the law does not see it that way. I have sympathy for all those who made unknowing decisions. But guilt comes from knowingly doing something that perhaps you should not.


Sorry to say I don't agree with you on this lisagurl.  I don't think anyone chooses to go into the sex trade or live a promiscuous lifestyle.  Most have had difficult childhoods and they can't magically recover when they turn 18 and go and live a 'normal' life.  Those scars are permanent, and it will affect every single 'choice' that they make, and as far as I'm concerned, they haven't the skills to make any choices at all!  And it is sad that HIV and Hep B destroys these people's lives even long after they might have tried to 'get clean'.

Guilt is not from knowingly doing something wrong????   There are loads of a**holes walking around, perpetrating the most heinous crimes and they have no guilt whatsoever!!  I think you are very wrong on that score!

buttercup  :)
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Sheila

Ann,
  I only know too well where you are coming from. I too have guilt feelings about being alive. You just need to keep on living and doing it the best you can. Try not to think of the what ifs but think of the positives that will happen in your life. Make it longer than usual to make up for your friends. Try to make this world a better place so that people like your friends don't pass on. Do it for their memory. You don't owe anyone anything,except to live a good life. Have fun.
Sheila
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Hypatia

Perhaps Lisa is not familiar with the concept of "survivor guilt" and confused it with sexual guilt. It has nothing to do with sex. I first heard of it years ago in connection with people who lived through catastrophes like plane crashes in which most victims died, and the survivors questioned their own right to have been spared when so many others weren't. Even though of course it wasn't their fault.
Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls
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lisagurl

guilt (gĭlt) 
n.
1.   The fact of being responsible for the commission of an offense. See synonyms at blame.
2.   Law. Culpability for a crime or lesser breach of regulations that carries a legal penalty.
3.   
a.   Remorseful awareness of having done something wrong.
b.   Self-reproach for supposed inadequacy or wrongdoing.
4.   Guilty conduct; sin.
tr.v., guilt·ed, guilt·ing, guilts.
To make or try to make (someone) feel guilty.
[Middle English gilt, from Old English gylt, crime.]
guilt
Subjective feeling of having committed an error, offense or sin; unpleasant feeling of self-criticism. These result from acts, impulses, or thoughts contrary to one's personal conscience.
WHY NOT ME?
DEALING with SURVIVOR GUILT in the AFTERMATH of a DISASTER
Donna Marzo, Psy.D.
Ray sat slouched on the couch, his hair full of ash, burnt papers clenched in his hands and a blank stare on his face. He had just survived a terrorist-induced disaster of unbelievable magnitude. In the days that followed, Ray experienced a pervasive feeling of sadness and an emotional numbness. He noticed a gnawing sense of guilt that was growing within him. He continually asked himself, "why did I live when so many others died?" "Why did I just stand there while buildings crumbled around me?" "Why didn't I help somebody instead of just running?" Ray had trouble sleeping, became withdrawn, was bothered by intrusive thoughts and flashbacks of the disaster. He felt inadequate and full of shame because he did not have "a story to tell" about how he helped someone. Ray saw himself as a strong, capable man who acted like a coward in a time when others needed him.
What Ray was experiencing is known as survivor guilt -- a phenomenon often experienced by those who escape from a disaster that seriously injures and kills others. An individual dealing with this particular type of guilt may believe that they experienced a good fortune at the expense of others and that by attempting to save their own lives, they intentionally harmed others.
Guilt is believed to serve four functions: defending against helplessness, effecting self-punishment, inhibiting impulses, and preventing the event from becoming meaningless (Opp & Samson, 1989). Cognitive (thinking) and affective (feeling) components are at play in survivor guilt. Cognitively, the individual thinks that s/he was responsible for the tragic outcome that others suffered. In the case noted above, Ray accepted total responsibility for not helping hundreds, perhaps thousands, of others. Rather than blame the terrorists for the deaths caused by the disaster, he blamed himself for saving his own life instead of returning to the burning buildings to help others. He held the irrational belief that if he "wasn't such a coward" he could have acted in some heroic or superhuman manner to save lives. Affectively, an individual experiencing survivor guilt may feel helpless, powerless, sad and full of shame. In essence, their sense of self and competence has been violently shattered.
So how does Ray deal with his survivor guilt? Here are some suggestions:
1.   Talk, talk and then talk some more. One of the most effective ways to reduce feelings of isolation, withdrawal and helplessness is to share our experiences with one another. The recent terrorist attack was experienced by millions of people -- some from ground zero and some from 3,000 miles away. Nonetheless, we all have a "story" to share. One did not necessarily need to be at the World Trade Center or the Pentagon at the time of the disaster to experience survivor guilt. The point is that there are lots of people out there to talk with in both personal and professional arenas.
2.   Restore a sense of safety and stability. Return to routines as soon as you can. Routines provide a sense of familiarity and competence to our daily lives. Engage in work and play. Return to exercise routines and hobbies. Initially, the usual joy that accompanies these activities may not be present, but the physiological effects will increase endorphin levels that in turn may lead to reduced feelings of fatigue and powerlessness.
3.   Challenge irrational thoughts. Ask yourself what you truly could have done at the time of the disaster. Remind yourself who is to blame -- you are not to blame. Grieve for those who perished and for the loss of innocence. But, do not accept responsibility for that loss. Often in revisiting the details of a disaster, one realizes that they did engage in actions to preserve life and safety. In recounting his experience, Ray realized that he not only helped others out of the building, but made several stops as he ran from the crumbling building to visually track colleagues who were running behind him.
4.   Take an asset/strength inventory. What qualities or strategies have helped you through times of stress or crisis before? Call upon those strengths. Remember that you were strong and resilient in your efforts to survive. If you did not have this resolve the magnitude of the disaster would have been even greater.
5.   Help in the recovery effort. Take action -- action makes us feel real and alive again. Action helps to alleviate feelings of guilt because it prompts us to change our focus from events of the past to events of the present. It feels good to do something in the effort to recover from a disaster (i.e., donate blood, food or clothing; volunteer time; write about your experience, etc.).
6.   Connect with your support network. Through connection with others we feel alive, understood and meaningful. Whether it is your partner, gym, place of worship, job, or family -- get connected. Remind yourself of the things and people that are important in your life.
Aaron Hass (In Lemberger, 1995) said that, "guilt is the penance one pays for the gift of survival." Rather than focus on the burden of guilt, remind yourself that you and your loved ones have been given a gift -- the gift of your survival. Embrace your will to survive and fight the forces that challenge your way of being.
References
Hass, A. (1995). Survivor guilt in Holocaust survivors and their children. In J. Lemberger (Ed.), A global perspective on working with Holocaust survivors and the 2nd generation (pp. 163-183).
Opp, R.E., & Samson, A.Y. (1989). Taxonomy of guilt for combat veterans. Professional Psychology: Research and Practice, 20, 159-165.
09/24/01
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Anonymouse

No this thread is not about risky sex or prostitution although in part it may be related to despair and isolation. Of the five of us two took their own lives and another got lost in a world of drug abuse. By the late 80's we did know about the dangers of HIV and safer sex but you only have to make one mistake.

I know I should not feel guilt but I still do. I think of myself as a survivor and it has made more determined than ever to live a full life. I have survived though and not only survived but life is good. I just don't understand why I was the one that made it.

Maybe I am feeling more reflective than normal at the moment as I'm finally approaching an important trip to Thailand. Perhaps it will help me put the past more firmly behind me I'm really not sure.

Ann
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V M

I've lost a variety of friends in various ways for various reasons. The "Survivors Guilt" nags at me everyday.

I still picture their faces in my mind and sometimes see pic.s and vid.s of some of them and still think "Why them?"
The main things to remember in life are Love, Kindness, Understanding and Respect - Always make forward progress

Superficial fanny kissing friends are a dime a dozen, a TRUE FRIEND however is PRICELESS


- V M
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Cindy

Dear Ann

In my line of work I meet people daily diagnosed with leukaemia and with HIV. Some live thanks to a lot of peoples hard work. Some die even after a lot of peoples hard work. I do feel guilt for loosing people; even though I am not at fault. I still see the young woman in casualty (ER), explaining how bruises were developing on her legs as she bounced her little baby on them. I knew straight away she had acute myeloid leukaemia, she would die from it. It was Christmas Eve.

Try not to feel guilt when you have worked hard at succeeding, luck also plays a hand.

People who feel guilt are those who have emotions and who can love. There is nothing wrong with that. People dominated by hate don't usually feel guilt :angel:.

Good luck for your Thailand trip. Let us know how it went.


My best wishes to you and to your friend with HIV, give her my love and best wishes if you are able.

Cindy
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Northern Jane

Quote from: Anonymouse on September 02, 2007, 10:05:24 AM.... There were quite a few times when I didn't think I was going to make it and some of the others seemed much stronger than me. I don't really understand why I'm the one that is still here and I find myself feeling guilty.

Does this make sense to anybody?

It makes perfect sense to me Ann. I felt the same way a number of years ago and that's what brought me back to "the community" a few years ago.

In my early teens (1960's) I had connected with others like myself, a sort of informal network for sharing information, mutual support, and just getting together to have fun. The girls in the network were really important to me. Before them, I felt alone, like I was the only one in the world with this problem and though them I got to live a lot of "girl experiences" at a critical time in my life. In those days, before treatment was available, the average life expectancy was 25 years so being TS Type VI was a fatal disease. I had lost a number of friends to suicide and knew of many others that had taken their own life as well. Some of these girls were imminently more "passable" and more natural than I and I envied them, but they didn't make it.

Toward the end of my teens I slipped into a worsening depression and lost touch with the girls in the network and by 24 I was seriously suicidal when I got a phone call from one of the girls telling me about Dr. Biber in Colorado - she was at the airport on her way there. Within weeks, I to was on my way to Colorado and made one phone call to one of my friends in the network to tell her about Dr. Biber's practice, and then I was GONE.

Life was a blast! I slipped right into stealth and a normal life - just what I had always wanted. Decades went by and I never thought about it again until years after my divorce and after the proliferation of the Internet. One day I wondered what ever happened to "people like me" and what the situation was like today.

That's when the survivor's guilt hit me. There were so many nice girls I knew back then, on a sinking ship (life expectancy of 25), and I took the first lifeboat available, by myself, without any concern for them (aside from the one telephone call). I had (at that time) lived over 30 years in my wonderful life and not even thought about those I left behind. I wondered how many, if any, had managed to find a lifeboat.

Could I have done more to help others? Sure. I could have made more phone calls, I could have stayed around (post-op) to help open more doors, but my strength was already exhausted and if I hadn't got out when I did, I would have been just another statistic myself. I needed to HAVE a life, to recharge my batteries, before I could do anything else.

Survivor's guilt is natural but it shouldn't be a reason to diminish your present. We all do what we have to do to survive and as long as we don't do it by crawling over others, there is no shame in being a survivor - it is something to be proud of.
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tekla

Ray saw himself as a strong, capable man who acted like a coward in a time when others needed him.

This.

I often wondered how much the cops at Columbine have questioned their manhood after the example of 9-11.  They sat and did nothing while people bleed out, while we saw all sorts of NYPD, NYFD, and NYPA people run INTO those buildings when any sane though would have been to go the other way.  They did not, and we - rightly - consider them heroes, and the Columbine Cops as zeroes.  If you can do something, and choose not to, it's going to haunt you, as it should.

It seems to be a common feature of such guilt, that people felt like they should have done something, those that do, tend not to feel guilty about it.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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K8

I think I understand, Ann, partly because I lived through that time too.  I didn't pursue transition then because I couldn't face what I thought were the probable consequences for me. 

You managed to transition during a time when the TS survival rate was very low, when as a TS just staying out of jail was an accomplishment.  You did what you needed to do.  Perhaps you could have helped the others more.  But perhaps they would have pulled you down into the pit with them. 

I think survivor's guilt is natural in your circumstance.  Like any other kind of guilt you need to work through it and put it away, perhaps using it to move forward in a more constructive way now that you are strong enough.

And thank you for helping to clear the path so I can transition now.  I will be forever grateful to you and the sisters you had who didn't make it.

*hugs*
Kate
Life is a pilgrimage.
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V M

Speaking of survivors guilt, my step sister just passed away after battling breast cancer for eight years. Once again I'm thinking "Why her?" She was a very nice mother of three who didn't smoke, drink or do drugs

Virginia cries again
The main things to remember in life are Love, Kindness, Understanding and Respect - Always make forward progress

Superficial fanny kissing friends are a dime a dozen, a TRUE FRIEND however is PRICELESS


- V M
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