Quote from: Leslie Ann on August 11, 2009, 09:59:17 PM
The difference is that while a girl in an oppressive country may wish to be a boy,  if that wish were granted she would hate who she was worse than she does now.

What if it was reversed and you were to transition into the oppressed sex, would you still "want" to transition, or would you stay as you are and soak up the easier way of living? The true transsexual would (and do) at least consider transition even if it means into a more oppressed role. There have been quiet a bit lately about mtf's in Iran and even more oppressive countries.

Actually this is another point i was about to start a new thread for, but since you raised it here.   Do you think there are some people who transition for the wrong reasons?

I imagine, that if you were a gay man in a country where homosexuality is strictly forbidden on pain of death and worse – like Iran – being a woman would seem like an easy out to get out of marrying a woman? But probably wouldn't make him happy? I heard those stories too, and i wonder a little if maybe some of these cases are just gay?

Cross dressing if forbidden under Islam, but there is an obscure haddith which slightly supports transition. A man and wife do not see each others point of view, and are having an unhappy marriage, so god switches their bodies, and this vastly improves their relationship.

Being trans is possible not very well accepted in Muslim countries, but may be preferable to being gay, since you are at least sticking within the strict framework of gender roles, even if it wasn't the role you started out with. And it would at least be easier to hide, given the strict dress codes it may even be feasible to hide quite well during transition.

Quote from: metal angel on August 10, 2009, 03:45:49 AM. . . but being transexual is different, right?

Yes! Transition for "social advantage" is one of the major disqualifications in consideration for treatment (pain & simple) . . .

Now, could "social reform" be a whole 'nuther story (or is that just one of it's many & varied inevitable outcomes) with, in other words, a "feminist" and "TS activist" (ie:MtF) not being quite the same thing at all?

Quote from: metal angel on August 10, 2009, 03:45:49 AM
It's more than just not wanting to be your current gender, right?

No it's about being the gender you really are.  Even if I'd been born with perfectly formed genitalia (I was born intersex), my real gender was never between my legs.  My real gender has always been between my ears.

When I grew up, I did a lot of things that were considered girly and "normal", and then I did things that were "boy things", like played video games all day and played sports, roughhoused with the other boys in the neighborhood, and later found an interest in cars. It wasn't til society forced the words "male" and "female" onto my activities that I found anything strange about the things I liked. I wasn't being girly by playing with dolls with my friends, just like I wasn't being tomboyish by going out and racing remote controlled cars or skateboarding...I was just being me, and did what appealed to me.

So I'm not going to say that I don't appreciate not being patronized for liking something that socially I shouldn't ("you're a chick that works on cars?! WOW!") or being assumed that I'm strictly a butch lesbian for dressing like I like and feel comfortable in. It's nice being treated like one of the guys, and I LOVE dating as a guy (even with all the stresses of being discovered and the frustration of being pre-op means no happy funtimes) because for once it's okay and acceptable for me to act the way i'm comfortable.

But the thing is...I haven't changed anything more than outward appearance, and it works, so why change more? Because it's that self comfort that I'm striving for, to feel like I actually fit in my own body. I'm still me in my head, I'm just changing my appearance to fit that same person...and if we were in a society that was exactly opposite, and women had all the power and men were just drones, it wouldn't change the fact that that discomfort is still there.

Look at all we risk: we pay mass amounts of money and subject our bodies to injections, multiple surgeries, estrangement from our loved ones, and possible persecution by our communities. I would hope that none of us are doing this for something as trivial as not having to pay the tab at dinner or getting out of enlisting.

hrmmm... i wouldn't call getting out of entisting "trivial" man... i've got a plan of actuion for that, i won't go for citizenship in any country where it's compulsory, but if some WWIII starts i'll star with pacifist, if they don't buy that i'll go for crazy, and if they don't buy that i'll try to get knocked up, failing that... um... shoot myself in  the foot?

but ok... probably wouldn't get a sex change just to get out of military service... but given i'm starting as female here, i think it would be counterproductive... so it's hard to relate to...

maybe war is more trivial than gender on some scales...

sorry... i think cold virus has got to my brian again...