Something that I think we sometimes forget is that simply when we go out 'dressed' (or whatever you want to call it), just because no one says anything does not mean we 'passed'.

In my opinion 'passing' is more akin to being treated as the gender we are presenting as.

Just sand in the wind...

I have to agree Kimberly.  Sometimes silence is not golden, not that I would be so presumptuous as to think that anyone would give me a second thought, I've often wondered what people think when they see me.

While no one says anything to my face at work, it would be foolish to think that people don't talk.

Steph

I totally agree ladies..

I guess the majority of people I come into contact with don't know, but also a number of people don't actually care.

People talk, that I know for sure and on a couple of ocassions my business partner has been asked outright If I was born a girl (to which she has replied, "but I have seen her birth certificate and she is a girl".)

As Steph said, no one has actually asked ME outright yet.

Rebecca

I've suspected a few people have figured it out, but didn't say anything to me.  Nobody has confronted me, but I've seen noticable shifts in attitude when they figured it out.  Most of the time though, I'm treated as my gender.  I have said this area I live in is very accepting, but since then I have learned that some of my friends that are more VGV (visibly gender variant) have been discriminated against or people have shown hostility towards.  This makes me realize that for the most part I have been treated like a woman.  It scares me though what would happen if a hostile person did read me.

Melissa

I've relied more on how people address me or talk me to judge whether I'm passing or not.  If I'm always addressed as "ma'am" even when I'm dressed in boyish clothing, I'm probably doing okay.  If people routinely use the correct pronouns, I'm probably doing okay.  I still think "passing" refers to how we are perceived, not how we're treated.  I assume that if we're passing, we're being treated like any member of our chosen gender.  With people who knew us before, the circumstances are different and we'll never pass in the same sense.

I'm fortunate in that I evidently pass well and have been doing it for so long that I rarely even think about it.

Dawn

Quote from: DawnL on August 28, 2006, 10:57:57 AM
<snip>...  With people who knew us before, the circumstances are different and we'll never pass in the same sense....<snip>
Dawn

Too true.  I often wonder if the old employees who knew me before tell the new employees about me.

Steph

Steph, you can be sure that some of the old employees that have known you before have told the new ones. Word gets around, don't think it doesn't. I go out and no one says anything and I don't bring it up. I go where I want and I don't care what people think or what they want to think. Passing is in your mind, if you think you pass then you do. You really have to play the part though, don't go out unshavened if you are a MtoF and if you are a FtoM don't forget to bind or hide if you haven't had top surgery. Be who you are and don't worry about it. If someone is going to cause trouble then they will no matter if you looked like the most beautiful person in the world. I have gone into the locker rooms and the showers and no one even gives me a double take. Do the best you can with what you have and don't worry about it.
Sheila

Quote from: Sheila on August 28, 2006, 01:05:30 PM
Steph, you can be sure that some of the old employees that have known you before have told the new ones. Word gets around, don't think it doesn't. I go out and no one says anything and I don't bring it up. I go where I want and I don't care what people think or what they want to think. Passing is in your mind, if you think you pass then you do. You really have to play the part though, don't go out unshavened if you are a MtoF and if you are a FtoM don't forget to bind or hide if you haven't had top surgery. Be who you are and don't worry about it. If someone is going to cause trouble then they will no matter if you looked like the most beautiful person in the world. I have gone into the locker rooms and the showers and no one even gives me a double take. Do the best you can with what you have and don't worry about it.
Sheila

Yes you are quite right they have probably been told or have found out.  I just wondered as there doesn't seem to have been a change in attitudes from them towards me, as you said word gets around.  You have a great way of putting things Sheila.

Steph

I know that I have no problems now.  People may talk about some wierd aspect of my presentation.  Typically, it is my voice at night, while on a mountain top with a bunch of fellow astronomers.  Someone who does not know me will use the wrong pronouns.  I leave it up to those who know me to make the necessary correction. And they always do.

But, way back when.... where people did know about my history at work, I discovered that new people I met had a harder time thinking of me as "male".  It is first impressions that have a lot to deal with how people handle the issue.  In your case Steph, I doubt you'll have too many problems with new employees.  Who they know and see is vastly different than the person they may learn about from others.  Eventually, the issue becomes mute.  The newness wears off when they find out just how normally mundane we really are.

Cindi

I agree. Most people have enough manners not to say anything even if they are weirded out or offended. I look them in the eyes when I want to see if I pass. The eyes pretty much tell me if I passed or not.

What I get a kick out of is when I get ma'am'd while dressed in drab. It has happened three times in the past month. I don't think there's any way I look female when in my work clothes (the only time I'm in drab) so I just chalk it up to not paying attention.

Sometimes, I notice people staring at me and I look at them and smile and they usually smile back.  I don't know if they were trying to figure me out or was just looking at me as a woman, but either way it ends up with a smile.

Melissa

I recently revisited the whole passing thing while preparing for the gender presentation I will be doing this weekend.  I have been busy getting on through life, much like most of those who hustle and bustle about me.  I am out at work and within certain social networks so it is not an issue there.  Elsewhere, there is too much going on and, to be honest, I could care less about what complete strangers may think of me.  Plus I have no real idea unless they are uncouth enough to approach me or loudly voice their opinion.  The last time that happened was... a very long time ago.

As far as I can tell, I have merged back in with the flow of society.  Well most of the time anyway.  I still like standing apart from the crowd every once in awhile. 

Sounds good LIT.  I like that attitude.  However, you may want to post another post because of your post count (if you're superstitious ).

Melissa

Julie, I find what you had said kind of funny. When I'm out with capris on and a tee shirt or something like that I get maamed all the time. When I get a little dressed up say like in a skirt and blouse I get these little stares, still get maamed and doors opened for me. But I don't get the little stares when I'm dressed comfortable like capris and jeans. It just strikes me as funny. I don't really care what they think just as long as I get the service I deserve.
Sheila

Interesting Sheila.   The difference I've noticed when I dress up is I receive compliments and always while wearing a skirt.  When I don't dress up maybe I just don't stand out as much.  Personally though I like standing out, but that's my personality.  The same thing happens with my ex.  She tends to get complimented when she goes out in skirts too and she likes it.  What's funny is I have actually had somebody mistake me for her twice.  The world is a funny place and I like expressing my individuality.

Melissa

I just know that the women I work with all treat me with respect and as an equal.  None of them have ever shown any hesitation in accepting me.  And today at Barnes and Nobles (looking for True Selves, didn't find it) a man got to the door just before me, he smiled and said hello as he opened and held the door for me.

Sarah L.

Quote from: Sarah Louise on August 30, 2006, 04:22:44 PM
And today at Barnes and Nobles (looking for True Selves, didn't find it) a man got to the door just before me, he smiled and said hello as he opened and held the door for me.

Deja vu.  The exact same thing happened to me yesterday...at a Barnes and Nobles.  Except I wasn't looking for True Selves. I told you the world is a funny place.

Melissa

Don't you just love haveing the door open up for you and it is not the automatic door either. Letting you go in first, what a thrill. I have been haveing this done for me for about 3 or 4 years now and I still get a kick out of it. I had a little girl at Wal-Mart, just a few minutes ago, tell her mom I look like her grandma. I felt so good. I was in the school section trying to find little things for my kids on my bus this year. Less than a week left OMG time flies when you are haveing fun. I got more kids this year and they gave me a bigger bus. I drive special needs and a small bus. I can't wait.
Sheila

Quote from: Sheila on August 30, 2006, 05:02:46 PM
Don't you just love haveing the door open up for you and it is not the automatic door either. Letting you go in first, what a thrill. I have been haveing this done for me for about 3 or 4 years now and I still get a kick out of it.

Yes I do.   I had guys rushing to hold the door open for me even prior to going fulltime while I was presenting as male.   I really got a kick out of that.

Melissa

I do agree completly ladies.  Most people don't know my past and I get some stares from a few when out and about as if they are tring to fiqure me out. I usually just glance back smilling and walk on. I've never had a problem though. But I like it when I get treated like a lady.

Owen

Love being female