Yesterday I went grocery shopping on the military base with a male friend who is also retired military.  Everyone, including my friend, was treating me as a woman. 

At the commissary, there are people who bag the groceries and carry them out to your car.  They aren't employees and are doing it for the tips.  Yesterday all the baggers were women.  When I got to the cashier, my favorite bagger gave me a big wave and came over to ask how I was doing.  Another bagger admired my purse.  The cashier was friendly and very pleasant.  But it was another woman who bagged my groceries.

When I got out to the car, the bagger put the groceries in my friend's car, accepted my tip, and said: "Thank you, sir."

(Rats!    I was so mad I almost grabbed the money back from her.)

Later, I had coffee with another male friend.  I realized during our conversation that I was still talking to him the way I used to when I presented male.  Another male friend happened by.  One of them referred to me to the other as *male name* but immediately corrected himself.  Finally, it occurred to me that I need to start treating my male friends as a woman would treat her male friends.  (I've had no trouble making the shift in how I treat my women friends.)

I've always known this isn't about clothes.  I've also learned this isn't about just mannerisms, either.  A lot of my friends have more-or-less made the shift to treat me as a woman or at least are trying.  But in order for them (and me ) to make the transition in their (our) thinking, I need to begin treating them as a woman would treat them.  It will help all of us through this transition.

Has this been your experience in learning to live in your new role?

Still learning ,
Kate

Not really.  The only adjustment I've made in how I interact socially was to learn to nod at men passing, not smile. 

As far as the bagger, it sounds like the case of someone who was unable to resist the temptation that they're so highly intelligent they knew what you really are! *gasp*  Things like that are always indicative of someone who clearly needs to get a life.

People like that are just rude and ignorant. mentally kick him in the nuts.

I'm sorry that happened K8. It's good to analyze oneself and figure out where one can improve, but I hope you aren't beating yourself up too much over it. Like Mister said it sounds more like a personality flaw on the other persons fault than yours.

A friend of ours is just coming out.  She had a dinner at her place and several times had to ask some of the guests to refer to her in the feminine.  She was dressed andro and used pretty much her old voice.  Her mannerisms were mostly male.

When we got home we both agreed our friend's only problem was she hadn't let go of her male persona.  But we also agreed it takes a while because there's unlearning that has to accompany the learning.  And depending how long you lived in that old life, it can take quite a while to break old habits.

I worked pretty hard to present as female as possible.  But what's funny is now I'm seeing myself revert back just a bit.  The new presentation was just too feminine for me.   

Julie

I think there is a difference in the experiences of people who have adapted a persona of their birth sex and those who have not.  Those who have are at risk of slipping back into the persona.  I just don't think I've ever had a female persona, so I act just as I act.

Quote from: Adrian on August 20, 2009, 09:14:10 PM
I think there is a difference in the experiences of people who have adapted a persona of their birth sex and those who have not.  Those who have are at risk of slipping back into the persona.  I just don't think I've ever had a female persona, so I act just as I act.

Pretty much the same here with me.  I'm not sure I really had a female persona, other than to have long hair and feminine clothes.  I'm just the same old me.


Jay

I agree with Julie Marie.

When I was "male'd up" I carried myself with a swagger and a military manner. Not so good when you are trying to release the old and embrace the long hidden. I had to learn as all young girls do, how to give the ques expected of a woman my age. I am still the wrench swinging, mostly confident,  no-nonsense gal I always knew I was, but now I can show it, and no one says boo. If transition is a second puberty; then wabbly, giggly, out of step, exploring teens we get to be.. only this time we get to do it right!

When your male roommate, who knew you from long before and is only a friend, begins opening the door for you, watching his language, taking out the trash, and leaving the toilets for you to clean.. and doesn't even realize he's doing it?..  then you know you have done your job right..  Now slap his silly ass and tell him toilets are NOT for women only.. and could he please put the blasted seat down!! .. Jezz....

(Sorry, flip it and reverse it for you guys out there.. except the seat.. it STAYS down..   )

Dearest K,

First off, thank you for sharing your experience with us. Yes, I too have had the "sir" experience when I did not think I should expect it (in certain contexts). Mannerisms, movement, and attitude are really key to passing.
I am glad that you learned something from this experience and shared it with us.

I too have a long way to go.

HUGS

Brenda

Quote from: K8 on August 20, 2009, 08:18:56 AMI was so mad I almost grabbed the money back from her.

Should have done it, too. (Though I guess it would have been pretty awkward.)

Calling me "sir" is a sure way to lose your tip. Luckily for the waiters in my town, it doesn't happen very often.

Good point about how you treat your male friends. I have never been terribly interested in having male friends, but have a few by default from "before," and it's hard switching roles with them because I don't really know how to act around men other than to ignore them entirely. I think there's a part of me that just doesn't care how men view me at all.

I was at the grocery store a couple of weeks ago. Why does so much happen there 

Anyway, I asked one of the butchers for some carne asada. He called me sir  That hasn't happened for quite awhile.

Noting my dismay he gulped and looked distressed. Especially when a bunch of women including the female butcher gathered about to give him "the look" 

Now when I go the female butcher makes a point of serving me  She's nice

Quote from: Alyssa M. on August 21, 2009, 01:06:06 AM
Good point about how you treat your male friends. I have never been terribly interested in having male friends, but have a few by default from "before," and it's hard switching roles with them because I don't really know how to act around men other than to ignore them entirely. I think there's a part of me that just doesn't care how men view me at all.

I'd like to keep my male friends if possible.  I've only had a few straight male friends in my life but for some reason had a bunch before transitioning.  It was so nice I hate to lose that.  Still, I am now aware that I need to change how I treat them.  The friend I went to the base with has made the shift - opening doors for me, calling me ma'am, really understanding (I think) what is going on with me.  The others are supportive but I'm not sure they really understand.

One male friend I wanted to keep in good graces with because he was going to take me out to the shooting range and coach me.  (He still might.)  But I've found some women friends I can go with and a man who evidently doesn't realize I'm TS that is willing to coach me.

Gee, there's a lot more to this than first meets the eye. (Well, duh! )

- Kate

I think that in some cases, getting "sirred" may be misguided courtesy.

"Oh, they are wearing women's clothing but appear to be actually a man.
I read about this stuff somewhere.
I won't insult them by calling them a woman.
I'll be courteous and just treat them like any other man."

Quote from: Renate on August 21, 2009, 07:57:07 AM
I think that in some cases, getting "sirred" may be misguided courtesy.

"Oh, they are wearing women's clothing but appear to be actually a man.
I read about this stuff somewhere.
I won't insult them by calling them a woman.
I'll be courteous and just treat them like any other man."

You're probably right, Renate.  I didn't sense and ill will.

- Kate

Remember getting sirred is a subconscious act on thier part, not a conscious one.
Alot of people take the Sirs the wrong way early in transition.  Remember, you are an older transitioner, you are not always going to pass subconsciously with people.  As much as confidence, voice and behavior matter, looks do matter quite a bit. People generally don't even think about it when they do this.  This is a big reason FFS is so popular with younger transitioners, they realize that alot of being gendered is a subconscious act, they probably were not even thinking about it when they did it.  I would not let it bring you down, when people start harassing you for being trans...then start to worry.  But considering your age and where you are with regards to transition, this might happen on occasion, its not that big of a deal and don't let it bring you down.  You know who you are, and these people are not analyzing things as much as you are analyzing thier reactions.     

Actually one phenomenon i think may be happening is that the sir-er didn't actually think you were a guy, but was just unsure? She's probably also done this to the occasional older or mediterainian biowoman who's over-due for a lip wax.

I have a theory, which i'm keen to have a some views on. I think when people are not 100% sure of gender they go for "Sir" or "Mr", because generally women will get a bit offended if they are called male, but some men may really fly off the handle - and possibly even get violent - if they are refferred to as female. When i've been deliberately hiding my gender, but making no effort to "pass" for male (e.g. in letters or e-mails), i tend to get called "Mr" or "he".

Unless you were wearing a pink dress and/or had a size F bust, this gal proabbly just defults to the "safer" option? If she's not 100% sure she figurres it's safer to call a woman sir than call a man "madam". I guess the safer still option would be to just say "thanks", but (like a lot of people have stated) she's not thinking this all through logically.

Or maybe i just have more male persona on the inside than i give myself credit for?

Metal Angel has a good point there, the idea that a man might react much more negatively to being id'd incorrectly.  Many people may feel it safer to guess "sir".

I find that it is hard for a lot people to know what to say or how to use pronouns.  I tend to give people I do not know the benifit of the doubt on that one.  They may have only a couple of seconds to decide what to do, so they end up guessing.  A quick smile will go a long when they get "it" wrong.  Sometimes they'll then ask me what they should call me.

K8 that's gotta suck although I love being called Sir - had it happen a bit more often lately. It's gonna suck if I'm a few more months along on the T and I get called She etc I guess!

You and that bike make a nice couple, I wish I were tall enough to ride an Oilhead, had an 800cc Airhead that I butchered the seat on and that worked fine for me, but the new beemers are just too darned tall. You're tall enough to ride any cop bike, it would be cool to get one of those! Interestingly the 1200 Nightster (harley) fits me just fine now I have to hope the Harley folks don't mind that I test rode their $13,000 bike when I can't afford a $1300 bike right now lol.

Heh, there's a funny pause at the end of a statement when a polite person goes to say 'sir' or 'ma'am' and can't figure it out and trail off. For the most part, people treat me neutrally, but with very few sirs if at all in any given day and increasingly frequent ma'ams. The problem is that "man" and "ma'am" sound so much alike early in transition...

However, even when pronouns aren't used, I'm finding that women really talk to me a lot differently than they used to. Making quips about husbands, boyfriends, children, men, weightloss, fashion, etc. When before, they didn't really talk to me. When a woman hands you her purse and says "this is probably why I have back pain!", well, she probably at least thinks you're a gay man.  I've realized that we put a LOT of weight on an exchange being punctuated by a pronoun. When the old man who I'm actively helping looks over my head while I'm concluding his business and asks a man who just walked up where something is, I take that to mean that I'm passing (  )


But, Kate, I completely understand what you mean. When I'm not passing, or when I'm around people who I know perceive me as a man (including some friends who know about me but don't get it), I have a real hard time sustaining things. It's as if my female voice switches off because it knows it isn't getting anywhere. Maybe it's a subconscious desire to keep them comfortable. I don't know.

Women are adoringly referred to as "one of the guys" by male friends, but I think if you WERE actually one of the guys, it's harder to swing that.

For me passing seems more like a courtesy thing.  I think for women more fortunate than me it's more of a true pass.  And for those women I'm happy.  But I have come to be ok with a courtesy mam, and like to believe sometimes at least on some level they believe it.

When I get sirred I get insulted and often treat the person as badly as I can get away with.  Over time passing became less important for me.  I hope to one day shed all those silly worries