For myself Northy, it partly was a brain-body map sort of thing.  As I have stated in other posts, after surgery everything was finally in it's right place.

I guess there's just a shared symptom? superficially there's the want to have body parts removed, but below that there seems to be a perception of the body as alein and non-self in some patrticualarly destressed TS before transition which resembled that in BIID? I'm from a much shallower end of the TG pool, so i can't quite relate to that, it seems to be true for some though? correct me i'f i'm wrong?

Having surgery to correct the configuration of the physical body to match the mental image applies to both conditions but that does not mean the conditions are related.

For example, you can use aspirin as a pain killer or a blood thinner.   The fact that you might use the same treatment (aspirin) doesn't logically imply that the underlying condition being treated are related.

Similarly, even if there is a parallel between surgically changing the configuration of the body between BIID and GID, that doesn't causally relate the two conditions.

The whole body map thing has nothing to do with gender identity.  It's the physical representation of the body configuration within the somatosensory cortex where this "map" resides. Strictly speaking this is theory but Ramachandran used this theory to demonstrate that, post-amputation, this map gets redrawn which explains (a) why touching the face of one patient post-amputation led to the sensation of being touched on the now-phantom limb and (b) a method for the possible treatment of conditions around phantom limbs).  So in the case of amputees with phantom limbs and quite possibly for BIID, there is  a mismatch between the physical configuration of the body and the somatosensory homunculus.

In the case of gender dysphoria, the situation is somewhat different.  The somatosensory homunculus is not mis-mapped to the physical body, it matches exactly - the problem is that both of these conflict with gender identity because the anatomical gender doesn't conform with the mental gender.

Really, one has to look far beyond the superficial similarities to see that GID and BIID are fundamentally different things.

yeah, i've only heard this from the BIID side before, i was wonderring what the other side was.

I'm noticing a kind of hirachy of minorities seems to exist ... where they are trying to compare themselves to the ones above them and dissociate themselves from the ones below them?

Homosexuals sometimes compare themselves to enhnic minorities in arguments about discrimination. I imagine there are at least a few cross dressers who try to disociate themselves from either the homosexuals or the transsexuals. (e.g. Ed Wood in geln or glenda was keen to isolate dcross dressers from homosexuals.) TS often compare themselves to homosexuals as an argument that they are just part of the normal variation. But TS try to disociate themselves form BIID because it's not as well recognised. TS also try to disociate themselves from the mentally eccentric world with a vitrioloic passion that rather offends me. (I'm trying to work out whether the mentally ill are above or below TS on the ladder, i think they're battling for the same rung.) BIID sufferrers compare themselves to TS to justify need for surgery, since TS can access surgery but BIID have trouble. I wonder who the poor sods under BIID on the specturm are?

Interesting social phenomenon really. I'm not saying who's right, not saying what the real valid connection in that chain are here, just an intersting heirachy of who likes to be comparred to whom.

I can understand how folks might seek to draw comparisons to help others - usually in an attempt to help others who are outside of their minority group to comprehend their issues by trying to find a mutually understood frame of reference. To use your example; homosexual people seeking to use racial discrimination as a frame of reference for why discrimination is wrong - on the basis that racial discrimination is widely understood to be wholly irrational, hence if one can understand that, then hopefully one can understand why discrimination against homosexuals is similarly irrational.

However, as far as GID, BIID and hierarchies etc. are concerned, I personally don't think these are helpful or valid.  Each condition needs to be assessed and managed on its own merits.

Maybe there are some transgendered folks who deny any correlation with BIID for more parochial reasons around the recognition (or lack thereof) for BIID...I don't know, people vary.  It's unnecessary because, as per my previous reply, the two conditions aren't related anyway.  I think there is a valid discussion to be had over attitudes and appropriate treatment for BIID sufferers and one could argue there's a parallel to be explored there - medical recognition and attitudes to GID versus BIID - but comparing the conditions themselves doesn't seem to have much merit.

But i only did developmental biology as an undergraduate student at uni. Cindy, you said you were in cancer research right? Most cancer biologists know a fair bit of developmental biology?what do you think of the Chimera theory?


Not a lot, as far as I am aware, and I certainly do not read a lot in the area, it is extremely rare. Much rarer than TG. Absorbtion of the twin, as finewine noted, tends to be at the very early stages of development, way before any hormonal influences on brain development have taken place. Usually at later stages there is a undeveloped still born twin.  The occurence of teratomers (I think I have spelt that correct) is more common but thankfully still rare.

Just for fun the last time to my knowledge that Chimera theory was bounced around in the press was by a USA cyclist who failed a blood doping test in the Athens Olymics. He claimed that the incompatible blood (that he was accused of having transfused) was due to a Chimera. I was working in that area at the time and I and others were ROTFL, but it had to go to the committee.

So, in my opinion, chimera theory, is far too rare to account for the relatively high incidence of TG. Personally, I think it's the storks fault, or the wrong shaped cabbage leaf.


Cindy

Quote from: finewine on August 29, 2009, 03:11:56 AM
I can understand how folks might seek to draw comparisons to help others - usually in an attempt to help others who are outside of their minority group to comprehend their issues by trying to find a mutually understood frame of reference. To use your example; homosexual people seeking to use racial discrimination as a frame of reference for why discrimination is wrong - on the basis that racial discrimination is widely understood to be wholly irrational, hence if one can understand that, then hopefully one can understand why discrimination against homosexuals is similarly irrational.

However, as far as GID, BIID and hierarchies etc. are concerned, I personally don't think these are helpful or valid.  Each condition needs to be assessed and managed on its own merits.

Maybe there are some transgendered folks who deny any correlation with BIID for more parochial reasons around the recognition (or lack thereof) for BIID...I don't know, people vary.  It's unnecessary because, as per my previous reply, the two conditions aren't related anyway.  I think there is a valid discussion to be had over attitudes and appropriate treatment for BIID sufferers and one could argue there's a parallel to be explored there - medical recognition and attitudes to GID versus BIID - but comparing the conditions themselves doesn't seem to have much merit.

Agreed.

Metal,
Part of the thing with BIID is that it is often used against us. It is often referenced as to the 'absurdity' of people wanting to cut off healthy body parts.
Also, they're trying to use our medical model.

thanks for the views, it's interesting to see it from the other side.

I have a lot of sympathy for BIID in some cases, must be a very weird and destressing condition to have.

Neither condition is understood very well. Though there's a rational reason for being more willing to offer surgery to GID, which i wholeheartedly agree with, in that they do not require assisantce to care for themselves.

But i wonder if the societal objections are less rational. Even if not all functions are able to be successfully replaicted TS have the goal of becoming something deemed healthy, healthy man or healthy woman. But BIID sufferrers want to become an amputee, a condition most people view as diseased.

Do TS who are content to remain non-op have a hard time for wanting to stay in the middle without striving toward perfect man or perfect woman?

Quote from: metal angel on August 29, 2009, 04:26:00 AM
thanks for the views, it's interesting to see it from the other side.

I have a lot of sympathy for BIID in some cases, must be a very weird and destressing condition to have.

Neither condition is understood very well. Though there's a rational reason for being more willing to offer surgery to GID, which i wholeheartedly agree with, in that they do not require assisantce to care for themselves.

But i wonder if the societal objections are less rational. Even if not all functions are able to be successfully replaicted TS have the goal of becoming something deemed healthy, healthy man or healthy woman. But BIID sufferrers want to become an amputee, a condition most people view as diseased.

Do TS who are content to remain non-op have a hard time for wanting to stay in the middle without striving toward perfect man or perfect woman?

Good question for the Non-Op forums (also) - I'd like to see more from their perspective too.

I personally think that there are some core similarities between the two. With no disrespect to the disabled community, I think gender is much more socially complex than someone's level of physical or mental ability. However at a point nuerologically speaking it certainly seems possible to me.

I don't see why it couldn't happen. Though I am suspect of the frequency with which it is reported. At an equal level I am suspect of those who claim they are Transsexual. TS is a rare state of being which I think many often like to believe they have because it is easier to understand than realizing they are perhaps Transgender or a ->-bleeped-<- (Ooh look out for that scary word there!)

I'm not sure why a group of socially marginalized people such as us would be so quick to jump on something like this. I agree it is odd, and certainly raises cause for concern. We worry about the mental well being of those claiming to have it and how it will affect those around, and even society as a whole. Really though I fail to see how this violates Mill's harm principle, and so I can't say that I find anything explicitly wrong it providing certain simple conditions are met.

Maybe I'm the only Transhumanist here though.

Quote from: chrysalis on August 31, 2009, 12:22:15 AM

TS is a rare state of being which I think many often like to believe they have because it is easier to understand than realizing they are perhaps Transgender or a ->-bleeped-<- (Ooh look out for that scary word there!)

Personally,->-bleeped-<-, no way; transgender, of course. Doesn't mean I'm not Transsexual too.

what's so bad about the word "->-bleeped-<-" is it just that that's how a lot of the laws against it were worded back in the dark ages?

what's so bad about the word "->-bleeped-<-"

Well first of all I've always hated the Latin based words when a good old Anglo-Saxon one will do - but in this case I assume that people object to TV as opposed to CD because it implies a psychiatric pathology and not a simple description of behavior.  Its classification under certain kinds of deviance - a TV is a man, dressed as a women for the express reasons of sexual satisfaction, either by self, or by attempting to lure another man - for clinical reasons tends to point to a mental illness, as opposed to a more open sense of fashion.

Point being, I get no 'thrill' from cross dressing. Not because ->-bleeped-<- has a stigma.