I have a post-op friend and we have discussed this issue several times as she continues to agonise over that problem. 
I myself am still pre-op and far too easily read to ever have a Stealth option, so it will never apply to me, but I thought about it for a while and came up with this:-

When the time comes, rather than say "I was born physically male" say "I was born intersexed......"
Due to most guys rampant homo-paranoia it seems to me that a hetero guy is likely to be much more accepting of "a GIRL who was born with a genital abnormality which has now been corrected" than the outright proposition of transsexuality/male origins. 

To my mind, that approach has very many advantages and could be expanded and  adapted to encompass several other inconveniences so I put the idea up for discussion and comment.
Whaddya think? 

Its hard to base a relationship on "half" truths.  If things progress to a point of marriage or thoughts of children it becomes even more ackward.

I wouldn't want to live in fear that one day, somehow, your partner might find out by accident of your past.

Sarah L.

Quote from: Steffi on August 31, 2009, 05:26:07 PMDue to most guys rampant homo-paranoia it seems to me that a hetero guy is likely to be much more accepting of "a GIRL who was born with a genital abnormality which has now been corrected" than the outright proposition of transsexuality/male origins.

Nope. Intersexed or not, if you were once "legally male" you are in the same boat. I know.

Quote from: Northern Jane on August 31, 2009, 07:40:37 PM
Nope. Intersexed or not, if you were once "legally male" you are in the same boat. I know.

I concur. Same reason.

It's a lot like that old definition of rape, slightly amended to the occasion: "A penis, no matter how slight or for whatever small or long period of time as it may have been there, or the fact that it is now turned inside out and sunk into the groin, if once equipment of the woman, makes the sexual congress between a heterosexual male and such a woman a homosexual activity."

That's not true for all men; but for those you fear I'd imagine that it would be true.

Quote from: Nichole on August 31, 2009, 08:24:22 PM
I concur. Same reason.

It's a lot like that old definition of rape, slightly amended to the occasion: "A penis, no matter how slight or for whatever small or long period of time as it may have been there, or the fact that it is now turned inside out and sunk into the groin, if once equipment of the woman, makes the sexual congress between a heterosexual male and such a woman a homosexual activity."

That's not true for all men; but for those you fear I'd imagine that it would be true.

Penis turned inside out?  Ha! typical!  Sigh. But Everything post-ops have to do to prove their womanhood (especially in legal terms) is to drop their panties.  It sure as hell beats a penis which is still shaped as an "outie", no?

Steffi, your friend can use Zoe Brain's description of what transsexualism is (what she wrote regarding the Angie Zapata murder)

Quote from: Zoe BrainHow do we determine sex? Easy, obvious, right? Well usually... not always.

The sexually dimorphic areas (ie men have one version, women another) are:
1. Genitalia. Obvious, the reproductive systems are different.
2. Secondary sex characteristics - men have beards, women have breasts.
3. Endocrine system, the hormones, and how the cells react to them. There's differences at the cellular level.
4. Chromosomes. 46xy=male, 46xx=female.
5. Neurology - the brain is very sexually dimorphic, as we've found recently. The lymbic nucleus, governing emotional response, instincts, body image, ovulation etc very much so, the higher brain functions less so, and they develop after birth anyway.

It has long been posited that Transsexuals had cross-gendered brains. They reported being "men trapped in a female body" or the reverse. But we had no proof until recently, when autopsies and fMRI images showed just how sexually dimorphic the human brain is, and that transsexuals had cross-gendered neuro-anatomy.
At paragraph [252]: 'The traditional analysis that they are "psychologically" transsexual does not explain how this state came about. For example, there seems to be no suggestion in the evidence that their psychological state can be explained by reference to circumstances of their upbringing. In that sense, the brain sex theory does not seem to be competing with other explanations, but rather is providing a possible explanation of what is otherwise inexplicable'.
...
At paragraph [268]: 'It seems quite wrong to think of these people as merely wishing or preferring to be of the opposite sex, or having the opinion that they are'.

The American Psychiatric Association's Annual meeting will shortly have a seminar on the subject "S10. The Neurobiological Evidence for ->-bleeped-<-" with presentations on Brain Gender Identity by Sidney W. Ecker, M.D. and Transsexuality as an Intersex Condition by Milton Diamond, Ph.D. I've seen Dr Ecker's list of experiments and medical research papers. It's 8 pages long, and all say the same thing.

We're not sure why a cross-gendered lymbic nucleus invariably leads to a cross-gendered gender identity. Milton Diamond's theories are likely right, but proving that is hard. All we know is that every person ever examined identifying as male has one pattern, every person identifying as female the other. Whether Transsexual or not. Whether Intersexed in other ways or not.

Angie had the thought patterns, the emotions, the instincts, the body image, the identity of a woman. And had she been granted the opportunity, after the mandatory waiting period of at least a year living as a woman despite having a mostly male anatomy, she would have been able to access the hormone replacements and surgery that would have aligned the rest of her body with her brain.

To say that she was ever "male" is just plain inaccurate. She was an Intersexed woman.

http://aebrain.blogspot.com/

Quote from: Matilda on August 31, 2009, 09:01:35 PM
Penis turned inside out?  Ha! typical!  Sigh. But Everything post-ops have to do to prove their womanhood (especially in legal terms) is to drop their panties.  It sure as hell beats a penis which is still shaped as an "outie", no?

Steffi, your friend can use Zoe Brain's description of what transsexualism is (what she wrote regarding the Angie Zapata murder)


http://aebrain.blogspot.com/

Yeah, send 'em that essay and then ask them to go to where Angie Zapata was murdered (and there are TSes who live there still) and run that definitions-set by the fellas there and see how receptive they'll be to it.

In fact, don't just do that, heck CO is so small, population-wise. Go to where Gwen Araujo was murdered, go to D.C, or Memphis or come to Philly, Chicago, or Bensonhurst or Newark, or just about anywhere where there are post-op women living. But make sure she asks the guys how they feel. 

Perhaps she can get the real low-down from the real world, eh, "Matilda?" 

People who tell the truth, tend to get the truth told to them, and even in cases where that is not true, their BS detectors are more finely attuned.  People who don't tell the truth tend to have more people lie to them, and get away with it.  Your choice.

A person has to be honest.  Relationships like this must be based on honesty or they are not relationships.  Lets face it, being found out later after intimate relations can lead to a homophobic rage that can have devastating consequences.

-={LR}=-

As I said, it is not an issue that will ever arise for me personally because my presentation Outs me.

- but I do feel for my friend   

100% honesty is best. Half truths eventually lead to more lies and soon the entire relationship is destroyed.

Now, if you'd excuse me, "N', I have to get ready for work (you know... a  REAL job?)

Oh, in that case, I'll have a Quad split-shot grande in a venti cup, one pump mocha, one pump cinnamon dolce, non fat, with whip and mocha drizzle, americano misto.  And hey, you're a nice girl, keep the nickle as a tip.

Honestly, I WAS born Intersex.  That is no half-truth.  If I said, I was born intersex and had to have surgery to correct some things, I am not lying rather stating the plain and simple truth. 

I don't so much agree with the terminology of a woman with transsexual history, but I agree with the IDEA.  That is transition is something one DOES and has a stopping point, is not perpetual and is NOT an identity.  Maybe transitioned woman...get rid of the transsexual altogether and focus on the act completed. 

Thank you all for comments so far - particularly Matilda.

I do agree that a policy of honesty is by far the best and I do strive to be totally honest in the general matters of day-to-day life.

But........ it is not an ideal world we live in        I think that one can all too easily martyr oneself on the altar of honesty, splendid principle though it is. 

Quote from: MatildaIf my current BF and I were to break up, and I were to meet a new guy, would I tell him about my transsexual history?  I would have answered "yes" in the past, but my views have changed  & to be quite frank, I wouldn't know what to do.

Thank you for your frankness hun.  *hug*

To expand and clarify what my original proposition was:-
Remember that we are talking about a theoretical post-op person who is a very good pass - except for some slight surgery scars, no-one can ever know what was actually down there before or how many ops took place.
So...... I am saying "I was born with indeterminate genitalia ....... apparently a penis AND a vagina. A decision had to be made as to what sex I actually was and the doctors chose male, since it seemed that might be the most complete. They took it upon themselves to remove the female parts and so I was subsequently raised as a boy, but from the beginning of my own consciousness, I knew that wasn't right. 
I was always dreadfully unhappy, always a female inside and by the time I was old enough to learn about my problems at birth, testosterone was already beginning to masculinise my body. 
By now, the doctors had realised their mistake and that I was undoubtedly female, so medications were given to halt any further effects of testosterone and as soon as possible, corrective surgery was undertaken to replace what was mistakenly taken away from me in the first place.
I am now what I always was and as I always should have been - a woman."

That seems to me to be a pretty watertight story. It accounts for any and all things that might arise - like photos of you as a male etc and could only be disproved by your medical records, which are confidential. 
- I think that if boyfriend would even consider asking to see them, then you are lost in any case.

I think that tale might be a lot easier for a hetero male to accept than the alternative, the whole truth!
Because it is based upon a physical situation, it is a far more understandable proposition for an "outsider" to understand than trying to communicate and convince of the (undoubted) validity of acute gender dysphoria.

I DO fully understand the argument that a worthwhile relationship should be based upon honesty.
But the point is....... how many of us struggle with this Tell/Not Tell situation, how many of us lie - even to the point of Deep Stealth ....... and very importantly indeed, how many of us lose an otherwise very good love affair because when the time comes to tell, the guy just can't handle the thought that we were once a boy?

To say that we were always a girl but incorrectly butchered due to a doctors wrong guess is not the truth - but it is A truth, one which would all but eradicate the possibility of being unexpectedly Outed to the guy concerned.

Northern Jane commented that it made no difference, that the fact that it said Male on the birth certificate was the crux of the matter - I'd be more convinced of that if occurences of once intersexed people being rejected were cited.  ? ? ? ?
- of course, instances of post-ops being rejected are sadly ten-a-penny   

..... which is why this thread exists, to explore the possibility of a VIABLE half-truth that might serve better than simple blunt disclosure
 

OMG sugar, I'm all sweaty & tired of making all those fries for twelve hours straight. *mutters, whines, cries & moans*  Geez, when will "ENDA" pass? I can't wait to file a lawsuit for "discrimination".

Quote from: tekla on September 01, 2009, 11:35:17 AM
I'll have a Quad split-shot grande in a venti cup, one pump mocha, one pump cinnamon dolce, non fat, with whip and mocha drizzle, americano misto.

Wrong person, sugar.  I'm a fry girl.  Why don't you ask your "protégé" (You know, the one with the "Master's degree" or is it a "PhD"?) for that.  After all, she does work "there", doesn't she? *chuckle*




P.S.  Steffi: You are quite welcome!

Quote from: Matilda on September 01, 2009, 07:09:15 PM

Wrong person, sugar.  I'm a fry girl.  Why don't you ask your "protégé" (You know, the one with the "Master's degree" or is it a "PhD"?) for that.  After all, she does work "there", doesn't she? *chuckle*

I presume you must be talking about me, luv? Two masters degrees. 3 professional licenses. 1 co-practice and 2 independent contracts with other agencies. Yep, self-employed.

4 children, 6 grandchildren, 1 female partner. And all that came before that last sentence I'd give up for the partner, children and grandchildren.

Why? Because we love each other and actually do make the attempts to help one another successfully live her or his dreams.

I don't cringe at the possibility that I might meet someone else who was/is trans. Nor do I succumb to panic attacks when my workplaces hire someone else who is/was trans, fearing that that person might "read' me or somehow make someone else "read" me.

No boyfriends, but then again, I don't require my partner to avoid doing the things she wants to do so I'm not "outted accidently."

I didn't spend ten years in a gay relationship with a boyfriend who rejected me after srs because he wanted to be with a man.

Nice to see that all those years in gay bars has held you in good stead. Your cuts are very good, reminiscent to me of when we queens used to get together and slay one another.

My parents died years ago and didn't see to it that my name was on the place I live when my ex left me.

But, my children do love me and are very willing to be seen in public with me. My partner and I don't avoid "gay or lesbian bars" for fear I shall be outted or recognized. In fact, we avoid nowhere due to that.

No, I don't have a job with a hospital as a pharm-tech trying to pass myself off as a person with a job in medicine.

But, there are perks to just living a life without all the concerns that you have, "sugar."

Oh dear, are you supposed to be my "protégé" - I didn't get that memo.  But I shred all memos before reading, just to make sure, its an old Bechtel habit.  And I'm very suspicious about people who speak French when they are not in France anyway.  Kinda ghey you know?

And avoid gay bars, in SF?  That leaves you where?  With the posures out in the Mission (well not this week, they are all out being happy at Black Rock) with the ironic t-shirts and canvas shoes, or at the Starlight Room, scratch that, the Starlight Room has a Sunday Drag brunch, so that's right out.  I guess there is always the 65 club, but that's kinda hard to walk into and out of, unless you like to fight.  So, what's left?  The malt shop?  See 'ya at Mel's with the tourists then.

actually do make the attempts to help one another successfully live her or his dreams
No fair bringing reality into it, that becomes a one sided fight around these parts.

I didn't spend ten years in a gay relationship with a boyfriend who rejected me after srs because he wanted to be with a man
Duh, its like gay men like dick, that's what makes them gay?  Or did all these years in SF teach me the wrong thing?  I've seen FtMs make some inroads, but mostly they get treated like pets, 'part of the family' sure, but they don't go on vacation or get put in the will either, because, like, they are missing that big gay man part. 

Quote from: Nichole on September 01, 2009, 08:57:20 PM
I presume you must be talking about me, luv? Two masters degrees. 3 professional licenses. 1 co-practice and 2 independent contracts with other agencies. Yep, self-employed.

4 children, 6 grandchildren, 1 female partner. And all that came before that last sentence I'd give up for the partner, children and grandchildren.

Why? Because we love each other and actually do make the attempts to help one another successfully live her or his dreams.

I don't cringe at the possibility that I might meet someone else who was/is trans. Nor do I succumb to panic attacks when my workplaces hire someone else who is/was trans, fearing that that person might "read' me or somehow make someone else "read" me.

No boyfriends, but then again, I don't require my partner to avoid doing the things she wants to do so I'm not "outted accidently."

I didn't spend ten years in a gay relationship with a boyfriend who rejected me after srs because he wanted to be with a man.

Nice to see that all those years in gay bars has held you in good stead. Your cuts are very good, reminiscent to me of when we queens used to get together and slay one another.

My parents died years ago and didn't see to it that my name was on the place I live when my ex left me.

But, my children do love me and are very willing to be seen in public with me. My partner and I don't avoid "gay or lesbian bars" for fear I shall be outted or recognized. In fact, we avoid nowhere due to that.

No, I don't have a job with a hospital as a pharm-tech trying to pass myself off as a person with a job in medicine.

But, there are perks to just living a life without all the concerns that you have, "sugar."

Checkmate!  Oh Nichole, forgive me, I was going to answer from my apartment, but we had no power.  Yeah, we "forgot" to pay the electric bill for.....how long?....oh yes three months, and I was running around town applying at different "Starbucks" because I am jobless & penniless. 

Yes, that "pharmacy-tech" job (which is "not" a job in medicine) and all those "master-degrees" and "PhD's" I have accumulated over the years mean zilch.  No one will hire me basically because I'm an old tee-gee woman & a "non-op" by choice but I go around telling people that I'm post-op.  Talk about trying to pass yourself off as something you are not, eh? .  Yeah, I have to admit.....I like *it*, I don't want to get rid of *it*, and I enjoy using *it*.

I have no life and such low self-esteem that all I do 24/7 is go to websites all over the net to flame heterosexual post-ops, call them "hyper homosexuals", and tell them that their vaginae are nothing more than "inverted penises".  Yeah, I am that fracking insecure! After all, I am only a jobless, penniless, old, tee-gee woman with "a package".  In other words....a loser.

Sweet dreams, sugar!

Ya know, Tink. It's funny, that night I told you that the electric was off when you called me ... I knew then that the friendship was over. Good thing nothing else I said ever made an impression that wasn't undone by that one thing, eh?

That was just too much wasn't it? You couldn't be friends with someone whose electricity had been turned off for late payment.

Can you spell s-h-a-l-l-o-w? Sure ya can. Called that right didn't I? Shallow.

Power can be turned on again. But shallow's for a lifetime. Enjoy the kiddie-pool end of life, girl.

I'm not seeing many people find jobs, regardless of degrees, status, or past employment history.

A year and a half ago I was writing in here and other places about how bad these people messed up and everyone told me I was crazy. 

Like a fox.

And hey, its about to get worse.  Commercial real estate is crashing faster than the housing market did.  I can rent office space much cheaper now than residential space, which is weird.

Quote from: tekla on September 01, 2009, 11:49:54 PM
...  Commercial real estate is crashing faster than the housing market did.  I can rent office space much cheaper now than residential space, which is weird.

Yeah, even the news groups have got that sussed out now. If ya can read about on the netz ya know it's definitely progressed a good ways past, sorta/kinda an emergency.