I myself was raised in a Christian home and was constantly told that homosexuality was a sin. Don't get me wrong, they never said hating or killing was ever an option. Jesus said to love , not judge. But it was still a sin.

Now that I'm experiencing "trans" feelings and being told that it's wrong and a sin, I am starting to question those beliefs. I've never questioned it before but now I'm starting to wonder.

Even understanding more of the "other side" of the coin, so to speak, I have never been to a gay bar and probably would not feel comfortable in one still.

I really just want to be a woman and hang out with other women. Right now I have no attraction to men but if during the transition process, that happens, so be it. I still don't think I would hang out at gay bars and the like but maybe I can at least come to acceptance that those things are ok and how I'm feeling is ok.

I guess gay people aren't totally alien to hetero trans people. I think that we do have some similarities, such as having to 'come out' and facing some social taboos.

I also think that, from my experience, gay people are more open minded all together, so they will probably be more accepting of TGs. They may not like us in their bars, but they won't kick us out, either.

Quote from: Icephoenyx on September 01, 2009, 01:30:38 PM
I guess gay people aren't totally alien to hetero trans people. I think that we do have some similarities, such as having to 'come out' and facing some social taboos.

exactly, and also if i may add at one point or another trans people fall in the LGB part. i know some people might experience a change in sex orientation after hormones. But a heterosexual trans girl before transitioning is gay before transitioning, unless she started loving men only after transitioning.

Quote from: Icephoenyx on September 01, 2009, 01:30:38 PM

I also think that, from my experience, gay people are more open minded all together, so they will probably be more accepting of TGs. They may not like us in their bars, but they won't kick us out, either.

i agree, they are also a minority that face discrimination which make them more aware to the problem of discrimination and hence more open minded.  overall my experience with gay people is more than positive and found them very friendly toward me.

"All of the above" are discriminated against by the majority of society (at least in the US).  Can't we all just get along? 

And Jerica, it seems you may finally be seeing the light...I mean...not seeing the light... You know what I mean! Sin isn't real.

I can agree with that Yabby, the lesbians have been by and large pretty accepting here too. I've met a couple that seem to think we are wolves in sheeps clothing, but it's not nearly as bad as the men.

I've run into the phobic gay man a few times and I'm happy to say I've turned some of them around, at least those who will take the time to get to know me.

What opened my eyes a lot was the level of ignorance there is in the gay community about trans people.  Many went straight to drag queens when thinking of us.  But a lot of trans people are pretty ignorant about gay people too.  We have a lot to learn about each other.

Something that I've been trying to impress on phobic gays and lesbians is that trans is the common denominator in LGT.  There are effeminate gay men who are discriminated against because they cross the gender lines.  There are masculine lesbians who are discriminated against for the same reason.  Each of us suffers discrimination because we cross the gender lines.

It seems once I've pointed this out, formerly phobic gays and lesbians realize we are all in this together.

Julie

Quote from: Dana Lane on September 01, 2009, 02:51:26 PM
Sin isn't real.

Not quite where I'm going with what I said.

Quote from: Icephoenyx on September 01, 2009, 01:30:38 PM
I also think that, from my experience, gay people are more open minded all together, so they will probably be more accepting of TGs. They may not like us in their bars, but they won't kick us out, either.

I couldn't agree more.  When I first started going to gay bars I was fortunate enough to meet three of the most fantastic gay men.  They were so accepting and supporting.  They watched out for me and made sure I was always all right.  However, the lesbians I have met have been less accepting, with the exception of my doctor and chiropractor.

Not to be simplistic, but there are more variations with trans folk than with the gay community.  Asking rhetorically, as a trans woman am I a lesbian to love my wife?  Am I straight to love a man?  Sometimes it's like the Connie and Carla movie, thinking about it gives me mono! 

But, I wonder how much of this plays into the interpersonal relationships we have with gays and lesbians.

I suspect that many of the negative perceptions of gay people is that people are meeting them in gay bars.  People in bars are often ->-bleeped-<-s, and drunk.

But, I wonder how much of this plays into the interpersonal relationships we have with gays and lesbians.

I'd imagine about 99%.

Well, what I know is that if I gay guy ever gave me a hard time about being trans, I would think he's jealous because I would probably be able to pull of being girly and get away with it without getting made fun of (provided I pass). Plus I would be able to tell people about my boyfriend/husband without the possbility of getting mocked.

But, I guess at the end of the day, we each have our own struggles about different and similar things.

Where the hell are all these good gay guys you people are talking about? I can't find any that will give me the time of day. I actually kissed a girl the other night for the first time in umpteen years, and it kinda reminded me of eating cotton candy; sweet and soft but makes you sick if you do it for too long. If that's what it's like kissing me I don't see what the big deal is for these guys, the last I checked soft and fem was in with that crowd. Meh.

This is a good subject!

I'm a straight guy who just happened to get born female bodied, and for a long time thought of myself as a lesbian. Lesbians and I, by and large, are like oil and water. My basic essence is male, I'm a guy, and I think that's the cause of the difficulties. Face it lesbians don't like straight guys who may be giving them or their GF the eye. It seems silly to myself that I'd be considered a threat, but the essential male-ness, the physicality, the aggression, are there. I'm not a big guy but I'm a guy, I think like a guy about things, do stuff like expect to pay on a date and open doors, and if I'm interested, which I probably am, I'm not gonna wait for you to make a pass at ME.

There's a lot of political correctness and sensitivity that's just a minefield for me too. My guy friends and I talk about subjects, and talk about things in general that would have a lot of lesbians wanting to shoot us all. Burping, farting, and crude jokes, we've all learned to keep those things away from the ladies.

Now, being so essentially male, I've found gay guys to be very congenial, as long as they're the masculine type gay guys. Being a biker and into leather I find myself instantly at home among any biker types gay or straight, and when I was living near there, I was a regular at a leather bar in San Jose called Renegades. I think at least a quarter of the guys thought I was a guy at first, and the welcome and friendliness I got there far exceeds any lesbian bar (yuk!) or straight bar I've gone to. Although divey straight bars are pretty damn cool too.

Now, I can get along with these more masculine gay guys because we're on the same sheet of music, they just like guys and I like girls. But we're both masculine, like leather and bikes and well, cool stuff. But things got interesting when I met my last GF and started taking her there, we'd go in the afternoon when there was almost no one there and make out on the bench in the back. The mood from the guys changed then, it was like, Oh, she really does like girls, and I got some comments. I think a lot of 'em really did have some interest in me, and my putting the smooth moves on a girl and so obviously enjoying it made me a traitor in a way lol. Now my GF and I are split up and I'm single again, and when I'm up there I'll still go to Renegades and have a beer or two, and I'm welcomed. Frankly there are not many there who actually wear leather and go everywhere on a motorcycle so that gets me cool points.

I guess I'll always consider the more macho gay bars to be places of friendliness and refuge, since I can go hang out with guys and have a good time without being hit on (I suspect even when fully passing, no one would make a pass at me, as a dominant type, I'm expected to make the passes lol) and just hang out, play pool talk etc.

Lesbian bars are high drama. By high drama I mean hair-pulling, parking lot brawls, and games like coming on to a person, when they show interest then going to the other side of the room and sending one's "ex" GF over to try to start a fight, then I guess the person and the "ex" go home and have hot make-up sex. Drama, drama, drama. One half of a couple screeching away in the car, the other half drunkenly begging for a ride. More one-upmanship than among a group of teenage boys at a hot-rod show. Otherwise very intelligent, thoughtful women go to these places and act in this junior-high way, it's amazing.

Frankly I am not going to miss all this emotional stuff. I am not going to miss being a "lesbian" one iota. And as a "lesbian" my hunting ground was among 5% of females, as a guy it's among the other 95%. Does this make me homophobic against lesbians?

I probably have a too-rosy view of the gay male scene, for most gay males it may be as full of frustration and hassle as I've found the lesbian scene to be.

I think a lot of transpeople are just glad to see much more of the world open up to them and want to be out of their slice of the gay scene and never look back. And sometimes the anger and frustration comes out in the form of homophobic comments.

The problem is, there's still no excuse for hating. There's no excuse for not supporting marriage equality, etc. I can't tell you how many lesbians I've run into who voted for McCain.

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Post Merge: September 02, 2009, 01:23:14 PM

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Becca - a lot of these guys like GUYS. They don't want soft and sweet, they want firm and hard and smelling a bit like leather and WD-40.

Quote from: Alex_C on September 02, 2009, 01:21:02 PM
This is a good subject!

I'm a straight guy who just happened to get born female bodied, and for a long time thought of myself as a lesbian. Lesbians and I, by and large, are like oil and water. My basic essence is male, I'm a guy, and I think that's the cause of the difficulties. Face it lesbians don't like straight guys who may be giving them or their GF the eye. It seems silly to myself that I'd be considered a threat, but the essential male-ness, the physicality, the aggression, are there. I'm not a big guy but I'm a guy, I think like a guy about things, do stuff like expect to pay on a date and open doors, and if I'm interested, which I probably am, I'm not gonna wait for you to make a pass at ME.

There's a lot of political correctness and sensitivity that's just a minefield for me too. My guy friends and I talk about subjects, and talk about things in general that would have a lot of lesbians wanting to shoot us all. Burping, farting, and crude jokes, we've all learned to keep those things away from the ladies.

Now, being so essentially male, I've found gay guys to be very congenial, as long as they're the masculine type gay guys. Being a biker and into leather I find myself instantly at home among any biker types gay or straight, and when I was living near there, I was a regular at a leather bar in San Jose called Renegades. I think at least a quarter of the guys thought I was a guy at first, and the welcome and friendliness I got there far exceeds any lesbian bar (yuk!) or straight bar I've gone to. Although divey straight bars are pretty damn cool too.

Now, I can get along with these more masculine gay guys because we're on the same sheet of music, they just like guys and I like girls. But we're both masculine, like leather and bikes and well, cool stuff. But things got interesting when I met my last GF and started taking her there, we'd go in the afternoon when there was almost no one there and make out on the bench in the back. The mood from the guys changed then, it was like, Oh, she really does like girls, and I got some comments. I think a lot of 'em really did have some interest in me, and my putting the smooth moves on a girl and so obviously enjoying it made me a traitor in a way lol. Now my GF and I are split up and I'm single again, and when I'm up there I'll still go to Renegades and have a beer or two, and I'm welcomed. Frankly there are not many there who actually wear leather and go everywhere on a motorcycle so that gets me cool points.

I guess I'll always consider the more macho gay bars to be places of friendliness and refuge, since I can go hang out with guys and have a good time without being hit on (I suspect even when fully passing, no one would make a pass at me, as a dominant type, I'm expected to make the passes lol) and just hang out, play pool talk etc.

Lesbian bars are high drama. By high drama I mean hair-pulling, parking lot brawls, and games like coming on to a person, when they show interest then going to the other side of the room and sending one's "ex" GF over to try to start a fight, then I guess the person and the "ex" go home and have hot make-up sex. Drama, drama, drama. One half of a couple screeching away in the car, the other half drunkenly begging for a ride. More one-upmanship than among a group of teenage boys at a hot-rod show. Otherwise very intelligent, thoughtful women go to these places and act in this junior-high way, it's amazing.

Frankly I am not going to miss all this emotional stuff. I am not going to miss being a "lesbian" one iota. And as a "lesbian" my hunting ground was among 5% of females, as a guy it's among the other 95%. Does this make me homophobic against lesbians?

I probably have a too-rosy view of the gay male scene, for most gay males it may be as full of frustration and hassle as I've found the lesbian scene to be.

I think a lot of transpeople are just glad to see much more of the world open up to them and want to be out of their slice of the gay scene and never look back. And sometimes the anger and frustration comes out in the form of homophobic comments.

The problem is, there's still no excuse for hating. There's no excuse for not supporting marriage equality, etc. I can't tell you how many lesbians I've run into who voted for McCain.

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Post Merge: September 02, 2009, 01:23:14 PM

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Becca - a lot of these guys like GUYS. They don't want soft and sweet, they want firm and hard and smelling a bit like leather and WD-40.

I have nothing constructive to add, I just wanted to say I agree with everything in this post

Wow.

I'm pretty sure that post would get me banned for life on another site I've been active on.

Wer'e a lil higher class around here.

Certainly understanding, humor, and not the hair-trigger tempers I've seen elsewhere .......

Were you trying to be funny with that post? I thought it was spot on. I've never been to a lesbian bar but it's not hard to imagine the scene you described.

I was trying to be truthful, but yeah I do use some humor to get points across.

Sigh. The emotionality among lesbians is very high. Once you know 'em you can see the scripts they're following almost like subtitles.

Like, I go in the bar and since everyone's pretty damn antisocial (and in their little cliques) I strike up a convo with a tall, good looking girl. I quickly find out she's a career alcoholic who's lost her driver's license and may be heading to jail, and is an utter psycho. She's got some circle of people who seem to be her friends not sure and I kinda wander off.... so I end up talking with a cute, intelligent, gal who's not the bar type, came to meet a friend she says, never comes there she says. We're talking about all this stuff, in the back of the place which is slightly less ear-splitting and then out by my motorcycle. All's cool and I'm happy - maybe I've found someone who isn't a bar fly and is nice, intelligent, etc. Well after talking for hours who comes wandering out but.... the psycho. Now my new interest is about to leave, and the psycho keeps hassling her, not just asking but hassling, for a ride. My girl's car is full of stuff, she's moving, and keeps saying she can't really. Plus the psycho is getting posessive about me, "I was talking with Alex first" etc. The script is clear: I'm supposed to duke out the psycho or at least pin her arm and march her back into the bar, then I'll be the hero to the cute girl and all that. Except the cops get called at that bar ALL the time and I don't need charges for assault against me. So I just stay calm and wish 'em well after urging the psycho to call a cab, which she's not gonna do, and the cute girl to take care etc. And I ride off. And the cute girl takes the psycho home and they have hot drama-induced sex. And I email the cute intelligent girl and she's "too busy with her life to be with someone" lol. She got her romp with the psycho and now she's good for 6 months lol.

Now, granted, the cute smart girl sounded like she had a lot on her plate in her life and if I'd had the money to just take care of her problems for her I'd have suddenly seemed VERY interesting to her. But, I don't, and am too emotionally even to be thrilling I guess.

This is not just bar stuff, this is every day life stuff, life as a John Waters movie.

It's the same in "rap groups" social groups etc etc etc except they're less fun because you don't get to drink.

I had gone with an acquaintance who left me stranded. I was in a major city and soon people began accosting me. Plus I was having visual difficulty due to injuries.

I ducked into the first place I could. It turned out to be a lesbian bar.

They were very nice. They let me make long distance phone calls to find someone to come get me and gave me free drinks while I waited. I offered to pay what I had. They would not take my money. So I thanked them and left what I had on the bar when I left

Random acts of kindness go a long way