A lot of people that I barely meet at school, think that I am genuinely a girl, even when I talk, etc. etc.

But the thing is, some people I can hear whisper or saying to others is; "Is that a boy or girl?"

So I at-least know that some people can't tell either or.

Something I learned about passing is, people that are the same race or group that you are in, can typically read you better then other races...Which would explain that since I hang out with a lot of Mexicans and African Americans that I don't get read so easy.

Strange thing? Some Mexicans still read me...I have never had an African person ask me if I was a guy or a girl---In my opinion it's likely because even natural born African girls typically are manly like, so African men have a lower radar!!! --- But this is simply my opinion, doesn't mean it's true...

But the main reason why I made this thread for is...I know I pass somewhat or most of the time; I don't wear skirts, etc. etc.; But I do wear skinny jeans, I don't stuff, I do tuck, I have long hair and I do wear make-up and I walk like a typical girl.

But my question is for an MtF what are some good make-up and overall any tips/tricks, etc. etc. that will help with passing at all times!? =]

My counselor told me once, early on, that passing is an internal thing, not an external thing.  It took me a long time to realize what she meant. 

If you think you are a girl, if you present yourself to the world as a girl, if you act like a girl, if you relate to other people as a girl, if you are a girl, you will pass.  Sure, the externals help, but it is what shines out from within you that defines you.

Your results may differ, but in my limited experience even people who knew me as what's-his-name now see me as a woman because they can see that I really am a woman despite my previous presentation.  It is who I am inside.  I am learning to open up so that those around me can finally see that woman I have always been in there somewhere.

Quote from: Sheva on September 03, 2009, 03:30:07 AM
But the thing is, some people I can hear whisper or saying to others is; "Is that a boy or girl?"

(  I remember years ago when the androgynous look was first popular with young people - 70s? - some older person remarking "Is that a girl or boy?" and my companion turning to her and saying "Don't worry, dear, they can tell.")

- Kate

Quote from: K8 on September 03, 2009, 08:08:58 AM
My counselor told me once, early on, that passing is an internal thing, not an external thing.  It took me a long time to realize what she meant. 

If you think you are a girl, if you present yourself to the world as a girl, if you act like a girl, if you relate to other people as a girl, if you are a girl, you will pass.  Sure, the externals help, but it is what shines out from within you that defines you.

As much as many trans women buy that, its really not true.

First impressions matter.  From looking at your pictures, I recommend FFS.  The truth is younger folks have alot easier time reading a person than older ones, plain and simple. Quite simply, there is more scrutiny towards immediate presentation.  The whole mind over matter thing really does not count for much, and people sometimes humor gender representation, but will question it behind your back.  Basically they may be nice to you in person, but that is how they treat you to be nice, even when they are not.  I have no shame in being blunt...your nose and your brow could use work.  The whole "what shines out" that really matters is more or less what is told to older transitioners, but the truth is, if you transition younger...you should know better.  How tall you are, your hand size, adams apple prominance, brow bone, all of these things do matter.  The best way to address these things is not to buy into some "what shines out" philosophy, because lets be honest, young people are shallow, but fixing everything you possibly can in order to insure assimiliation instead of facing lingering questions can be effective.  You still have a ways to go, and better makeup techiniques will not help you (truth be told its being considered female without makeup which should be your goal).

Also there really is not a racial/cultural thing going on here, that is in your head.

QuoteStrange thing? Some Mexicans still read me...I have never had an African person ask me if I was a guy or a girl---In my opinion it's likely because even natural born African girls typically are manly like, so African men have a lower radar!!! --- But this is simply my opinion, doesn't mean it's true...

Just because it's your opinion, doesn't mean it's not racist.

You're likely passing because you're very young.  Also, there is a big difference between people recognizing and respecting you as trans and people thinking that you're female without any deviations.

And really, you're very young.  It's pretty easy to pass before any serious masculinization occurs.

Your passing because you have confidence that you are very much a girl. The only time you dont I imagine is because your face does look masculine in some of your pictures.
For me most of the time people don't call me either sir or ma'am but I take notice of when they do. Interestingly Ive been called maam twice..both by women. And Ive been called sir twice..both by men.

Quote from: Kyle :3 on September 03, 2009, 11:25:50 AM
Interestingly Ive been called maam twice..both by women. And Ive been called sir twice..both by men.

Yeah, I've noticed that I get 'clocked' by women more often. Men much less so.

The stereotype says that women are much more observant of the look and presentation of those around them than men are.

Personally, I think there's a much more "evolutionary" reason at work here that I won't go into (I have no proof).

Quote from: sweetstars
As much as many trans women buy that, its really not true.

First impressions matter.  From looking at your pictures, I recommend FFS.

when I first read your post I thought you were talking about Kate.

I think I get it now but it might not hurt to clarify you you were critiquing.

As for your suggestions, If i won the lottery I'd get every feminizing and beautifying surgery known to science but....i have an idea i'll have to resign myself to some things I can't afford to change.

But I enjoy a pretty healthy "who gives a f--- what they think?" attitude towards most folks anyway so that will help.

Still, if I were in Sheva's place and had youth and years to work towards those goals, i'd surely have them on my to-do-list.

Just because I'd be setting my sites higher if I were in my 20's than I can do when I'm getting closer to 50.

Quote from: Teknoir on September 04, 2009, 01:12:35 AM
Yeah, I've noticed that I get 'clocked' by women more often. Men much less so.

The stereotype says that women are much more observant of the look and presentation of those around them than men are.

Personally, I think there's a much more "evolutionary" reason at work here that I won't go into (I have no proof).

Well men and women have different brains. But men are eggheads but hey paying attention is overrated
I think the one of the guys called me sir because I was walking my female friend to the bathroom and he probably thought I was her boyfriend. Men just dont bother to study people enough or care.

I also agree that the "passing is more in your head than looks" is more in whoever's is telling you that head rather reality.
I seen quite manly people acting female and.. sometimes we need to face reality, get ffs.
In many times it's just that the surrounding accepts you but still notices it, giving you a better feel.

Many, not always.

Yeah, I've noticed that I get 'clocked' by women more often. Men much less so.

I think that women pay more attention to details in other people then men do.  And that's pretty much across the board. And the devil is always in the details.

As for 'passing' based on race, it could be that they just care less and write you off as 'another crazy white person.'

Quote from: Sheva on September 03, 2009, 03:30:07 AM
A lot of people that I barely meet at school, think that I am genuinely a girl

so you aren't a genuine girl?

Quote from: Natasha on September 04, 2009, 02:57:40 PM
so you aren't a genuine girl?

Ahaha! You made me laugh. =]

The thing is; I usually wear full-front bangs, so my brow doesn't usually show and yes I do agree with the nose but my Mom has the same, big, pointy nose as me; Also my Grandpa and my Grandma. So---Even the "genuine" women in our family have the same nose as I do.

Yes, I will get FFS...I do want that! But like everyone here says; It's mainly girls that clock me. But a few men do--Like I know there is make-up tips that make people's face have the illusion of being more rounded then square...

What I just don't like is when I hear, out-loud by people (Mainly Mexican), "WTF!!! Is that a guy or a girl?"
But most of the time when people see me, they think I am a girl.

So it's weird that certain people can "read" me while others I "pass"--Example: My 3rd period Music Teacher thinks I am an women. While--My 4th period History Teacher calls me male terms! o.O

It's sooo weird!!! 

I'm starting to pass more.... the T (testosterone) is starting to do things to my jaw line, muscle mass, and even veins on my arms (I have a big blue one across one bicep but these days it's bigger and bluer, it seems to have no purpose other than to look badass) but mostly I still don't pass, only a bit over 2 months on T.

Interestingly I'm known on Pacific Avenue in Santa Cruz and it's gonna be a head twister for people to realize that Hey wait a minute, wasn't that a girl before say a year ago? And I'm also semi-famous in a small sport world, No I don't plan to resurrect my career and with the T the US and international olympic committees wouldn't allow it anyway. But there are people out there who'd remember me, and once in a great while I cross paths with one. It won't surprise THEM though lol.

I'm glad I'm past this stage.

I'm more to the point that I get kind of weirded out when people will refer to me as a male.   It is only at work that it happens, because we have very androgynous uniforms, and I often just roll out of bed, and go there without doing much to my hair, and not wearing any makeup, but even then, my hair is really long, I have a name tag with the name "Sarah", and just in general I don't really understand why they would think a male would look like me or have my name.   So I usually just ignore it and go on about my business.  Because it's really only a certain percentage that it happens for.  It doesn't really invalidate me as a woman if some strangers call me a boy from time to time.  So long as they don't get upset about it and do something violent, then they can say whatever they want.  It's nothing to do with my life.  I like how I look, and so does my girlfriend, so what more could you want?

Plus frankly it's safer for me if people think I'm a boy at work, or at least don't find me attractive.  I've had guys grab my ass at work, and I work alone, so that's really scare.  and I get hit on a lot.  So I try not to look my best for work, if nothing else than to be safe.  But mostly because I don't really care about how I look at my job.  It's so unimportant.

Quote from: Alex_C on September 06, 2009, 03:48:17 AM
And I'm also semi-famous in a small sport world, No I don't plan to resurrect my career and with the T the US and international olympic committees wouldn't allow it anyway.

Um, are you sure about that?

http://www.olympic.org/uk/news/media_centre/press_release_uk.asp?release=855

Quote from: IOCThe group confirms the previous recommendation that any "individuals undergoing sex reassignment of male to female before puberty should be regarded as girls and women" (female). This also applies to individuals undergoing female to male reassignment, who should be regarded as boys and men (male).

The group recommends that individuals undergoing sex reassignment from male to female after puberty (and vice versa) be eligible for participation in female or male competitions, respectively, under the following conditions:

Hm well maybe I could if I wanted to. I looked at it a bit over a year ago and realized the money just isn't there, and the aftermath of having lost my business makes it much more complicated too.

Quote from: Tetra on September 03, 2009, 03:30:07 AM
Strange thing? Some Mexicans still read me...I have never had an African person ask me if I was a guy or a girl---In my opinion it's likely because even natural born African girls typically are manly like, so African men have a lower radar!!! --- But this is simply my opinion, doesn't mean it's true...

are you kidding me? i'm black and i can bet you i look more feminine than you do.

Quote from: SisterGirlfriend on September 29, 2009, 11:26:49 PM
are you kidding me? i'm black and i can bet you i look more feminine than you do.

--I didn't mean it in a bad way and I can't tell the emotion that your post is charged in, but it seems hostile--So if so; No need to be hostile

Also if you noticed I said SOME...Did I say ALL? No. Are you everybody? No. So please stop taking things to offense...

Example:

you're using a professional athlete as an example? besides, there is nothing manly about the girl you posted. yes, there is a need to be hostile. there are black people on this site and for you to say some BS like that is ridic.

Quote from: SisterGirlfriend on September 29, 2009, 11:48:16 PM
you're using a professional athlete as an example? besides, there is nothing manly about the girl you posted. yes, there is a need to be hostile. there are black people on this site and for you to say some BS like that is ridic.

Whether if you want to stereotype or not--I am actually African, my Dad was a African man while my Mom was a mix of White and Hispanic!

So if your trying to pull the race card...Don't...Because I am actually African too and there is no need for sisters to not get along.

This site is for bringing togetherness and uniting against one, why go against your own brothers and sisters?

We should be fighting for justice not against each other -- And because of that, I will be asking a moderator to lock this thread.

Once violence and outrage is shown, I don't want to be any part of it -- I will be the more mature one in this situation and back out. Violence and arguing is never the answers.

Lets hope this bickering won't tear us apart...Because as sisters and brothers, unity is key! =]