I was wondering, people keep saying it's a lot about cloths.
Mostly when I see a girl with kind of unisex cloths, I don't think she is a boy.

But I heard from some guys in a support meeting that they just wore a bit bigger unisex cloths and people thought they are guys.

How true is it? did you need more than just a bit different cloths? where they distinguishly male cloths or just casual neither gender?

Did you pass with it? what else did you do to pass?

I find it hard to believe people will think someone is a guy because of cloths no matter what the face says.
How long was the hair?

i passed or confused people enough for them to avoid pronouns about 75% (got he about 50%) of the time and all i did to pass was cut my hair into a faux hawk and wear guys shorts/pants and guys or unisex shirts.  (sometimes girl shirts, but no one has to know)  i dont think wearing a bigger version of unisex clothing would really help much, if at all.  wearing big clothes just made me look like i dressed like a weirdo or a wangster but didnt make me look more masculine.

that was before T.  now that im on T i pass 100% except one time at mcdonalds but i think that was just a fluke.  i guys shorts and pants only, but i wear a mix of mostly guys or unisex shirts and a few girl shirts.  (what can i say, i liked the designs. )

It depends on where you live.

In the northeast, we have a large lesbian population, so most are used to seeing more masculine-looking women.  For this reason I believe most FTMs early in transition don't pass, as they're read as butch.

When I wasn't quite passing at home, I passed easily in a more conservative state.  It is more than just clothing.  A lot of women today wear men's clothes

Jay

I think stature, hairs, and voice are the big factors. Clothing certainly helps, but you really do see more and more 30s+ women dressing like men. I had a professor who I absolutely adored in every regard who I wonder from time to time about, gender wise, since her wardrobe was very masculine. She said she would have been a priest, had she been a man... which was sad to me on a different level.

The first times that I felt like I was passing as me was when I was in Washington State. I wore ->-bleeped-<-ty, grungy boy clothes (hey I fit in lolz) and it was the first time in my life that I had men running out of the restroom when they saw me, or letting me go first (something that's never happened in Texas...)

So yeah, it's a whole package of your environment and you, not just one thing about you that makes you pass or not.

I mean, I have no really visible boobs at all, but I'm sort and butch looking and work a man's job, so it ties together nicely :p. If I looked like this and worked at a super-feminine place, it'd probably be different.

Whoops. This is a morning and I am not a morning people.

The biggest thing people see is the shape of your body. Small = feminine, tall/bulky = masculine. Next, your hair can be seen from all sides, but it's also (mostly, with the exception of balding) a personal choice, and it can establish you as a particular gender to someone before they see your face - and once you pass with someone, it's much easier to continue passing assuming you're at least androgynous.

I always tell the story that throughout my teens, I had hair down past my ass... and a beard down to my collar bone. And I would still get ma'amed at first glance a couple of times per week. I dressed horribly. (I was aesthetically horrible.)

There was no inner-spirit reflecting from me, it was just people being in a hurry and taking in partial awareness of their surroundings. it used to really piss my mother off and lead towards a lot of resistance when I came out to her because she went on and on about how it was because people have been calling me a woman all my life and that it messed my head up.

There are a lot of guys who get ma'amed due to having long hair. Don't forget, straight, normal, regular people sometimes get clocked wrong, too. People have asked me if my father is my mother on more than one occasion - he's just a gorgeous man with long, wavy red hair (in a faux-mullet ><.) Not that he's normal by any means, but he's painfully male in plenty of ways.

It's just that ever since I started, even when I looked really bad, people always told me:
"Oh just put cloths on who cares about your face, you will pass."

And it always made me completely annoyed.

And when I talked in the support meeting, I said that many times people still refer to me as a guy, especially if I wear unisex cloths.

So some of the guys said they know a lot of girls who put unisex cloths and referred as a guy and I was surprised and thought it's very hard to believe as I saw a lot of girls in non feminine cloths.

Made me want to ask around here.. I always hated it because sometimes I heard people saying that even when someone just starts everything or even before they get prescribed hormones, put girls cloths, you'll be just like any other girl.
Or a friend of mine said "many girls look like an ox, it's ok"

But there seems to be a very fine line they don't seem to recognize.. it's just annoying.

well, things improved a bit now with hrt
I am not sure how the majority people refer to me with my old cloths, it seems to depend on the day but pretty much 30-70, mostly guy.. when I put girls clothing only 2 people said "he" but I am not sure if it was a figure of speak..
So it's kinda annoying still.

I sent an image for virtualffs! hopefully I'll see results soon
this is the one:

In general it's a pretty good picture.
I don't want comments about the picture because however nice it is to hear "you look like a girl" "I'd never call you a he"  there are different perspectives, different pictures and when it comes to 3d and reality it's apparently not good enough.

I am wondering if HRT might still improve it, seeing as I was on antiandrogens for over a year but estrogen for 3 months and then a year break and restarted last month, they might still..
I am hoping I might be able to start having somewhat normal life without FFS

My mother said "put earing! you'd look feminine" - that made me quite mad at her ^^ for many reasons.. but I don't like earing anyways

On the bright side, I seem to be quite ok with some specific girly cloths now (others make me look just weird) so maybe I can handle something

I think I been drifting to this subject in too many posts recently.. sorry ^^ not much of a real life and I seem to have some sort of an urge to seeing what can be done.. and talk about those things which bother me all the time and no one in my life seems to care.. and that the few friends I have are quite lost about and can't help with..

It been two times that different friends (one a guy and one a woman) separately wanted me to try going out with them to the city in girls cloths and see I am fine.. both times I got deeply hurt when looking at myself and by other people.. and they (the friends) seem to believe it's all fine and I shouldn't let it bother me, not only that, but to keep going and ignoring "stupid idiots who see a guy and just be yourself", as if somehow ignoring reality.. as if feeling comfortable lying to myself and everyone around about my look.. and somehow actually fall to it and believe it..
It's funny that when I went few days ago on my own it went much more smoothly than with them

I find it weird how sometimes, with the most unflattering cloths, very old from my closet and quite big on me, almost like old rugs, also really bad hair - people sometimes see me for who I am.
And sometimes when I actually try to do my hair, wear a bit newer better cloths, I sometime get almost everyone to think I am a guy, a young one though (like 16 maybe).

Depending on how much your eyebrows are shaped from their natural shape in that picture, you could probably feminize them significantly. Women can wear brows that are thicker, but tapering the outside corner helps a lot. I was told by coworkers, my therapist, other, transsexuals, my girlfriend, a friend, and more that I needed to thin my brows down.

Your haircut could be part of it, too. I've seen that style on guys with your hair type. With my features, I seem to pass better with my hair pulled back and up than with it down, even though everyone tells me I've got gorgeous long hair.

You have a lot of feminine features, but  masculine features around the mouth, too. But my god you've got great lips. And hormones do amazing things, of course, especially for young people. There are some pretty damn impressive chins, jaws, and other features on a lot of female celebrities but they're still women, and some of them quite beautiful.

When you say anti-androgens, do you mean finasteride/dutasteride, or do you mean spiro/androcur? The former two won't do anything significant except hairline restoration. Plus, 3 months of estrogen really isn't *that* much. Especially if you were only on finasteride/dutasteride, 3 months of estrogen won't really do anything.

Earrings help me pass by counter-balancing the weight of the lower half of my face. You don't have that problem. But, earrings are another subconscious 'female' checkbox. Don't modify your body in a way you don't want to, of course.

Honestly, when it comes to clothes, I hide in androgyny because I'm afraid of not passing. And I'm not full time. I've been wearing womens' clothes only for over two years, but when somebody clocks me it's "Oh, he's metro/gay" not "pervert in a skirt."

At the same time, presenting clearly feminine can tip the scales when you're close.

Thanks for the reply

The antiandrogen is androcur, I started with spiro for about 3-5 months and was switched to androcur.

My endo doesn't want me to take dutas/fin at all..

What are the masculine parts around the mouth beyond the chin and the long distance from the nose?

I am not entirely sure if I would need or want a jaw surgery, I don't think my jaw is bad, a little full at the back but I don't think it's any masculine. opinions are welcomed.

I think forehead+nose might be enough and chin would help a lot beyond that but won't be a necessary thing.
Jaw might improve as well.

It's kinda hard to get money for anything when the minimum wage in israel is pretty much 5$ per hour.. and everything seems to cost in tens of thousands of dollars..

I read you as pretty androgynous from the picture, but your jawline is still kind of masculine...and yeah, the eyebrows will help a lot. I also notice that your picture in your signature looks more feminine from your smile (something I actually hate about myself, I feel like I can't smile for fear of being clocked as female).

If you want something femenine, I'd tell you to hair-wise go with something long, layered with a side part and possibly bangs, since a lot of guys won't spend a lot of time on more elaborate hairstyles.

I'm not sure however, your attitude makes a big difference. The way I am dressed does effect my overall attitude so clothing does make a difference.

I think that everything depends on the femininity or masculinity of your face and body. Personally, I'm short, so it's harder for me to pull the clothes, but I also have a fairly masculine face.

It all depends.

For FtMs, age and weight also has a lot to do with passing.  If you're < 25 and thin there's more chance that you will be read as a young boy with the right hair and clothes.  But if you carry weight in your hips, thighs, and butt, and/or are old enough to be very obviously not 13, passing is very difficult pre-T, and seems to usually take longer post-T.

Incidentally, Myself, I agree that you have great lips, and look more feminine when you smile.

Quote from: Myself on September 05, 2009, 05:01:34 AM
how much do cloths play in your passing?

are you trying to 'pass' yourself off as something you aren't?

One of the cardinal rules of live entertainment, magic shows in particular, is that people tend to see what they want to see.  The more clues you give them, the easier it it for them to take them and ignore the rest.  The more you make them observe and pay attention, the more they notice.

Quote from: Jamie-o on September 06, 2009, 04:01:02 AM
For FtMs, age and weight also has a lot to do with passing.  If you're < 25 and thin there's more chance that you will be read as a young boy with the right hair and clothes.  But if you carry weight in your hips, thighs, and butt, and/or are old enough to be very obviously not 13, passing is very difficult pre-T, and seems to usually take longer post-T.

Incidentally, Myself, I agree that you have great lips, and look more feminine when you smile.

It's also build too. I've always carried my weight in a more male pattern but I wear a men's size large in everything, making it further impossible to be seen as a kid. I would also argue that being seen as a prepubertal boy when you're 20+ is *not* the same thing as passing.
I don't think clothes do all that much. If you look like a girl, it doesn't matter what you've got on, and if you look like a girl and dress like a guy, the worst you'll get is read as a little boy.

A lot, in my case... though not in ways you'd expect. Something seems a bit off when I wear especially "female" things, but I look fantastic when I take the moderate approach.

It's really something you'll need to gauge yourself.

It's a whole bunch of stuff, but clothes are one of the major things I think. I notice that biomen like wide belts, your average working class guy always wears a belt and it's wide. "Bowling" type shirts with a T underneath, work boots, etc. are all things few females wear other than the really really butch ones.

There are a lot of butches where I live and esp. work and yeah I'm read almost all the time as one of them. That will change in its own time.

It all depends, really. I still have a somewhat female fat pattern, due to the whole on-off nature of my time on T, but no one reads me as female, obviously, and I'm not sure how much of that might be due to my beard or low voice. Prior to going on T, I actually passed as male MORE when I wore feminine clothing. Now, it doesn't matter what I wear... people read me as male unequivocally.

SD

I'm not trying to go outside with female clothes yet.
Well, actually I did it a few times, but without even the hope of passing, because of my face.
Once I had had my FFS, next year, I will feel confident enough to start going out, though.
I 'm not counting so much on clothes, I hope I will even pass in male clothes, and no makeup.
But sure, I like wearing dresses anyway, so I will do it for myself, not for the others.

Quote from: Genevieve Swann on September 05, 2009, 11:08:14 AM
I'm not sure however, your attitude makes a big difference. The way I am dressed does effect my overall attitude so clothing does make a difference.

I concur. Until recently I've always dressed rather androgynously... But earlier on in transition, I would say your attitude says more than what you're wearing.

Hmm. . . I usually wear pretty androgynous female clothing or male clothing. Don't bind or anything, and occasionally I'm read as male. It's working better with my shortened masculine/androgynous haircut. Clothes definitely make a big difference.

And as for Myself (sounds odd does it not?), you do look pretty feminine. After FFS I bet nobody will mistake you for a guy.

SilverFang