I've noticed in talking in PM's that many TG's, and they seem...off. The listening skills exhibited by MTFs are characteristic more of "male" behavior than "female", which I would imagine might throw others off. This doesn't bother me really, the point is, I think in transitioning to a woman, it would be important to learn active listening skills exhibited by many females, so they seem more "natural". Once again, not meant to be offensive, but I think it would help transition to a morewomanly state. Once again, not meant to be offensive, just an observation. Who knows, maybe I'm just being a jerk. But active listening (and understanding) is a very characteristic trait of the women I've experienced. Once again, I don't know you all (and not all of you exhibit this trait, but there are a few) well enough to see this in real life, but I think this could be a useful skill to learn to pass as womanly.

Naturally I don't know about whatever may have happened within someone elses private messages but as a general comment, it depends both on what and how one is communicating.

There are folks in my organisation who make valid points but its buried beneath such vitriol and/or attitude that nobody really listens - the mental "blast shields" just come down.  Naturally, the folks with the attitude think it's a problem with the audience's listening skills

The behavior I am refering to is this: when I have talked to people, on a number of occasions, I want someone to listen. Woman have a higher tendency to usually have a very good listening ability, and simply listen and understand. Some TG's (woman, not TG's but for context purposes) don't exhibit this. Some have tried to solve my problems, and seem to have a more "male" conversation style (well duh...they were socialized this way), and I think if they could develop the ability to listen in a more "female" way it would be beneficial to the transition process. Once again, an observation, not a "concrete" fact or criticism. Feel free to question my observation, I would love to hear opposing viewpoints. After all, forums are meant for discussion, right?

I feel that the ability to be a good listener and an understanding person is neither a masculine or feminine trait. But rather a human characteristic that is either inherent or learned by various individuals of either gender. Some folks are good listeners, others are not. I've met good listeners of both genders. I've also met folks of both genders who are terrible listeners.

Ok, accepting that this is a broad generalization, then yes - a common "signature" to conversational gender is that the male tends to be "problem solver" whereas the female tends to be an "empathizer".   One thing I learnt many years ago is that when a lady is sharing with me, she really doesn't want me to go on and on about what she could do and how to solve whatever issue she's having - she just wants me to listen and give her a hug.

That was just my own experience and, again, it's a broad generalization.

Wha?...did you all just say something...?

Sorry couldn't help myself.

Quote from: Virginia Marie on September 15, 2009, 04:11:31 AM
I feel that the ability to be a good listener and an understanding person is neither a masculine or feminine trait. But rather a human characteristic that is either inherent or learned by various individuals of either gender. Some folks are good listeners, others are not. I've met good listeners of both genders. I've also met folks of both genders who are terrible listeners.

I don't think it's an inherently feminine trait in that men can't do it, but the research does show that women on average are better listeners than men.  Could be because men are taught to stuff their emotions down whereas girls (generally?) are socialized to talk about their feelings more so they have more practice listening?  Nature vs nurture, who knows.

That said, I have experienced this in real life, don't know how I would notice it online.  Two MTF lawyer-type-people came to speak to my TS educational group at the therapy place I go to, and one of them just had a way of talking that lit up my 'male-dar' so to speak.  There was a clear difference between her and the other one who didn't do that.  I felt bad for thinking it, because I don't think it makes her any less TS/woman, but it's definitely something that happens and it definitely will set off warning bells in other people.

Quote from: Sammy on September 15, 2009, 04:01:16 AM. . . and I think if they could develop the ability to listen in a more "female" way it would be beneficial to the transition process.

lol Having belonged to many forums over the years on differing topics I've noticed a lot of people would rather be posting than reading - obviously it's an attention thing in need of seeing responses but in terms of *speaking* face to face . . . ?

Some people just flat don't stop talking long enough to think of something interesting to say, "brevity" is a virtue and the best way to hold someone's interest and nobody likes a "long story" lol can ya get to the point NOW please!

Sometimes I get coherent responses from folks, sometimes I don't. It doesn't seem to really matter if they're male or female.

The thing is though - would we even notice 'male-type' behaviors in ciswomen? I tend to do it automatically too at times - 'damn, that's a masculine (or feminine in the case of ftms) trait' when dealing with a transsexual or person of transsexual history. But I think that unfortunately like non-transsexuals, we too are subconsciously programmed to look for cues or remnants of the person's birth sex when we know their trans status.

There really is something to be said for the old verse 'look and ye shall find'.

And if we weren't socialized male...?  Then where does your theory end up?  I agree with Nero.  You're just placing things into either male or female and I really don't understand why you feel the need to do so.  It comes off condescending, as if MtF will never "get it".

When it comes down to it labels are just that and don't accurately depict the true depth of human nature. There is a whole spectrum of personalities and traits. Though there are tendencies for one gender to display them more prominently than the whole it doesn't make it true for all. Its filtered down to the individual and who they are, not their label.

If we all fell into the categories that people have made up to simplify the masses... well we wouldn't be us and I don't think we would be here. And I don't think I would have the interesting friends and people I know who are always breaking the mold and pushing past the age old stereotyping.

It becomes suffocating and limiting to force yourself into a specific role that isn't natural to you. If you are not the average woman than you are someone different. You could be an extraordinary woman without being typical of females.

Quote from: Nero on September 15, 2009, 06:00:01 AM
The thing is though - would we even notice 'male-type' behaviors in ciswomen?

A) Yes, or at least I do.  Mostly when contemplating who girls can act guy-ish with less repercussions, but still.



B) People are starting to get incensed over the OP but I think we're losing sight of something:  Sammy didn't say all MTFs are bad listeners etc etc, just that he noticed that SOME are.  And he didn't post here to say 'you MTFs are bad listeners and not real women!!!1' or something like that, he just said, hey here's something I notice, maybe it'll help some of you if you work on this.

So conclusion -- if you're a good listener: thanks for reading, nothing to see here, move along.  If your listening skills could use work, think on it.  And really that applies for everyone, m/f/mtf/ftm/everythinginbetween.

Now can we all go back to reading other forum posts please?

I don't think anybody's incensed. I just think we tend to notice these kinds of things more when we know somebody's trans.

Quote from: finewine on September 15, 2009, 04:15:03 AM
Ok, accepting that this is a broad generalization, then yes - a common "signature" to conversational gender is that the male tends to be "problem solver" whereas the female tends to be an "empathizer".   One thing I learnt many years ago is that when a lady is sharing with me, she really doesn't want me to go on and on about what she could do and how to solve whatever issue she's having - she just wants me to listen and give her a hug.

That was just my own experience and, again, it's a broad generalization.

I have had the same experience; my wife explained this to me early on in our marriage. It's how (some?) ciswomen think.

Since then, I've tried to be a good listener and show empathy without necessarily trying to solve whatever issue is at hand.

Quote from: riven_one on September 15, 2009, 07:41:12 AM
I have had the same experience; my wife explained this to me early on in our marriage. It's how (some?) ciswomen think.

Since then, I've tried to be a good listener and show empathy without necessarily trying to solve whatever issue is at hand.

So I'm kinda eating my hat right now... something about the internet brings out the problem solver in me .  I actually cancel a fair number of posts where I try to 'solve' a 'problem' and then decide that I probably don't know what I'm talking about -- but some of them get through... anyway, have fun everyone!

This is an interesting thread.

I can't say I've ever personally noticed the ability to listen as being exhibited by either one gender or the other. I suspect that what one does with the information they hear may be slightly different, and how it's processed... but the act of listening, and actually hearing what's being said, is just a skill. And, like any skill, it can be developed.

There are a number of factors that influence anyone's personality makeup, of which gender is just a very small part. And that includes the ability to listen to, and empathise with others.

Consider one possibility: A girl that has been isolated and ridiculed for being born male-bodied her whole life, who has learned to shut off from the outside world as a defence mechanism. The majority of times she listened to someone, the things said to her were derogatory and hurtful. Is it a huge surprise that she has subconsciously adopted a position of being unwilling, or more likely unable to really empathise with others at an emotional level? Her fear of being hurt or criticised leads to the reflex to only hear things at a 'skin deep' level, and her internal defences prevent anyone getting too close. This has nothing to do with her percieved gender dictating her thought patterns on a biological level. More the way she has learned to deal with others in order to make her own standard of life somewhat more acceptable.

The only real way to know why someone is the way they are is to get a picture of their life as a whole, and not just their initial appearance. The old adage of not judging a book by its cover applies perhaps. Start to read and you often find things you never even thought about.

Just my thoughts.

I feel that the ability to be a good listener and an understanding person is neither a masculine or feminine trait. But rather a human characteristic that is either inherent or learned by various individuals of either gender

This.

I think that since society tends to value that more in women then in men, its possible that those that show an aptitude for it are given more training.