The fact that others may have an opinion that may be different than yours does not mean that they don't understand your point of view. It doesn't make either of you good or bad people. It just means that they have a different point of view and expressed their opinion.

Deleting the thread would only serve to make you look immature

Just a thought 

Here's a thought....

When I was a young man (Oh my lord...... how I HATE saying that.....) I was very sensitive and easily hurt.  I was also a great empathiser and a good listener - people used to pick ME to be the one they told stuff to and discussed stuff with and used to say "I can TALK to you..." and stuff!!!
...... sadly, Life has knocked most of that out of me ..... marrying into the family from hell, running a couple of tiny and struggling businesses with cranky people and just general Life crap, besides coping with my well-concealed GID.
I do so wish that I could instantly revert ..... be how I was, feel how I did, but it's REALLY hard.
When you've been in Guy World for years, even as a non-competer, it's really difficult to shake off certain parts of the role.   

But to get to what I was going to say....
How many of you used to police your behaviour when you were in Guy World...... feel the instinct to empathise etc and respond in a female way ..... and then have to KNOWINGLY crush it down and make an actual guy-style response because you were aware of the inappropriateness?
I hold my hand up to that straight away.......

And even though my T is now slightly below average female levels, I have recently learned that I do still have some very male aggression in here somewhere that almost jumped out recently to deal with a particularly irksome taunter   
That would not be good......

Thank you. I'm used to differences in opinion leading to a stern beating.

Whoever said words can't hurt you was never beat by their own mother for calling the "Prophet of God" a false prophet and a pedophile.

Quote from: Steffi on September 15, 2009, 10:40:41 PM
Here's a thought....

When I was a young man (Oh my lord...... how I HATE saying that.....) I was very sensitive and easily hurt.  I was also a great empathiser and a good listener - people used to pick ME to be the one they told stuff to and discussed stuff with and used to say "I can TALK to you..." and stuff!!!

Described me rather well also 

The source of my gender dysphoria primarily was that my emotions and sexuality matched that of women primarily. What makes things MORE confusing is that my body feels "right'. And what I mean is, women are much more emotionally based in my experienced. Not bad, IMO. Emotions are a better guide than logic, as long as the emotion is logical (I wouldn't trust a Vulcan). A woman's sexuality follows her heart, from oberservation, while a mans follows his "uh-huh". I have a motherly instinct, very loving of others, very emotional (not to say balling my eyes out), empathetic, etc. I haven't found ANY men that exhibits very many traits that I exhibit, but it seems very consistent with women. And believe me, once I find something that seems fairly concrete, I try to find an exception. (When I learn a stereotype, I prove it wrong. Almost always.) Women are very sacrificing in love, in my observation, while men have a higher tendency to take (once again observation. Please give me an exception). One thing I have noticed, women seem to have a higher tendency to LOVE cuddling, and it is very emotional, while men do it for some other reason (phsyical pleasure, to be protectors?). Never heard a man in my whole life (and believe me I've looked) that has said "You can have great cuddling without sex. But you can't have great sex without cuddling). An interest in mine is talking to the trans community to see if I can discover some consistent traits among women, because if it is a consistent biological female trait, MTF's should exhibit it.

Quote from: Sammy on September 15, 2009, 10:59:26 PM
...because if it is a consistent biological female trait, MTF's should exhibit it.

I think that's where you get yourself into trouble.  Stop thinking that.

keyword "should".

doesn't mean they will.

Hard to pick out socialized trait from biological trait, because as long as you've had humans, there has been a biological/sociological component to all behavior, so I'm beginning to think this is a faulty line of reasoning. But if there IS a purely biological trait, that is only biological, it should be exhibited SOMETIME in there life. What causes a "motherly" instinct in women? The depth of emotion? Socialization? The F2M perspective on this would be interesting.

Maybe only mtf with certain finger ratios would exhibit said traits, or those whose arms bend out at the elbows when at rest at their sides.

Quote from: Sammy on September 15, 2009, 03:49:11 AM
Once again, not meant to be offensive

but this endeavour is the psychological equivalent of that quackery.

People have always described me as empathetic. I like working to resolutions in conversations when conflicts arise. I don't know what the point of sex without cuddling is; I see sex as basically a particularly intimate form of cuddling. I don't like competition. People have always (in my past) thought I was "off" in conversation, because I conversed like a girl and not like a guy. I'm sure I have some socialized male traits left over from my teen years when I learned to act more like a guy in order to have any friends and avoid getting beaten up.

Does this answer your question?

Yes.

Now for the confusion....why do i feel this way naturally if I'm SUPPOSED to be male, born male?

Oh, and Becca: Screw off. This is for MY understanding. I'm not writing a peer-reviewed scientific paper.

I will not.

Things like this border on hate speech, meant that way or not. How is the person who is just wondering about their gender identity going to feel when she reads this and sees, oh, it's hard for me to empathise so I must really be a boy after all?

This HAS been researched and peer reviewed, and thought processes like it resulted in us having to lie to our therapists to get treatment. This is out and out quackery at best, and I will not stop pointing that out.

Your fine Sammy. You said nothing that my speech instructor hadn't said.

 

Quote from: Sammy on September 16, 2009, 12:01:48 AMNow for the confusion....why do i feel this way naturally if I'm SUPPOSED to be male, born male?

YMMV.

Quote from: Sammy on September 16, 2009, 12:01:48 AMOh, and Becca: Screw off. This is for MY understanding. I'm not writing a peer-reviewed scientific paper.

What Heather said.

Hey girls.....don't squabble - we've got enough of the world against us without bickering amongst ourselves.

It is difficult to discuss subjects like this because they are close to our hearts and our sensitivities, but so are a lot of other aspects of our circumstances.
How are we ever going to unravel the conundrums within ourselves if we don't ask the question and discuss, POLITELY sharing viewpoints and input?
Jeez..... if we can't understand and tolerate one another, WTF chance does the outside world have?
.....if anyone finds the thread too hurtful, then just don't read it.

For myself, I am certain that I was born with a stereotypically female mindset that has been overlaid and deeply buried by my subsequent and apparently quite convincing portrayal of the male role.

I have some more thoughts on this general subject (female empathy/good listening) but no time just now - back later, assuming that the thread doesn't get locked!

Play nice, people   

It is VERY difficult to convey in print that which you can easily convey in person.  There is no inflection of the voice, no ability to immediately read the face of someone who might be taking what you said wrong, no way of knowing if what you are trying to convey is taken the way you intended until after it is posted.

We all need to remember this when we read something that offends us.  May I suggest you ask for further explanation before you let a comment get to you?

Julie

I thought I understood, and agreed with what Sammy was saying in the original thread.  Then I had second thoughts when reading the offense taken by some of the responders.  So I looked out on the web and there is a plethora of info on exactly this subject.  I thought I would post one from a site of a consultant in the "cultural diversity" business who is a "noted" key note speaker on the issue, and who gives permission for the use,

"Examples of Typical Differences in Male and Female Styles of Communication

Women are more likely to talk to other women when they have a problem or need to make a decision. Men keep their problems to themselves and don't see the point in sharing personal issues.

Women are more relationship oriented, and look for commonalities and ways to connect with other women. Men tend to relate to other men on a one-up, one-down basis. Status and dominance is important.

Women focus on building rapport, by sharing experiences and asking questions.
Men like to tell and give information rather than ask questions. They share experiences as a way of being one-up.

If women have a disagreement with each other it affects all aspects of their relationship.
Men can have a disagreement, move on to another subject and go get a drink together.

Women get things done at work by building relationships. Men build relationships while they are working on tasks with each other.

At meetings women nod their head to show they are listening. Men think the woman is agreeing with them. He then assumes the women will go along with his idea. He is surprised when she later disagrees, since she nodded her head. She has no idea why he thought she agreed with him since he never asked her.

At meetings, men only nod their heads when they agree. If a women is speaking and she doesn't see his head nod as he listens, she assumes he either disagrees or is not listening.

Too often men and women see the differences between each other and make each other wrong, rather than appreciating how they can benefit from those differences.
Simma Lieberman with Simma Lieberman Associates.

This is now me- She points out that Not all men are one way and women another, but that there is a marked, identifiable tendency that way.  Perhaps I might suggest that knowing these difference and training yourself to present in a more typical female pattern might remove one more "tell" from your presentation?  Gee, isn't that exactly what Sammy said?   I know that for myself, I can use all the help I can get!

@ Cindy Stevens
- thank you so much for making a sensible and informative post in this thread  

These were the two points that I myself was going to make, once I found the time and the words

QuoteWomen are more likely to talk to other women when they have a problem or need to make a decision. Men keep their problems to themselves and don't see the point in sharing personal issues.

Women are more relationship oriented, and look for commonalities and ways to connect with other women. Men tend to relate to other men on a one-up, one-down basis. Status and dominance is important.

sums it up far more concisely than I would have done   
- I would re-stress that the points in "Examples of Typical Differences in Male and Female Styles of Communication" are not universal and absolute but are correct to a high percentage.

So...... given that they are true, how do those of us not naturally inclined towards the female style learn it? What useful steps can we take?

Socialising with natal females has to be a good method - providing that they accept us AS female and behave in a relaxed and natural fashion and that we work to fit in to their ways and don't skew everything by injecting male-style into the conversation.

I would guess that hardest part has to be taking the female style and carrying it through  into a male social environment ? - if one has lived as male for years and learned "how to play their game" then it is all to easy to slip back into that style.   

A further complication is that the behaviour of both sexes changes when there is a member of the opposite sex there, particularly with men - when the female is of a screwable age they really play up.

Empathy is an important overall factor - but how can a person who is not inclined to empathy learn it?  Can it BE learned?

I see what Sammy's getting at.  When women talk, often all they want is to have their feelings validated.  Men, on the other hand, often want to offer solutions to the problem.  It's one of those things that causes fights among couples all the time. 

Sorry if someone else already said that.  I haven't read the whole topic.

Quote from: Steffi on September 16, 2009, 10:40:13 AM
For myself, I am certain that I was born with a stereotypically female mindset that has been overlaid and deeply buried by my subsequent and apparently quite convincing portrayal of the male role.

Me too.  And I think Sammy's original point is good - that there is some difference generally between the way men and women talk, and that MtFs don't always fit into that general pattern.

As others have said, I used to be empathetic but became socialized male to survive as one.  I am learning to let that old nature of mine come back (along with a lot of other old natures of mine ). 

I remember having a long conversation with a GG friend a couple of months ago and thinking to myself afterward how much I absolutely LOVE Womanspeak - the interweaving of several conversations together into one, with digressions seeking connection but returning to the task at hand.  To me, Womanspeak, when really good, is far richer and convoluted and textured than Manspeak.  I feel privileged to be able to participate in it.

But most of the time, it is just a little bit of connecting and little bit of problem solving and have a nice day, I'll see you later when we can really talk.

- Kate