Peoples ideas of God range through a whole spectrum.

Everything from the typical god or no god, to aliens, to mother nature, to...

I tend to believe in in mother nature and panspermia (the theory earth was seeded from space in some manner, the likeliest source being a metorite).

Quote from: Kait on October 09, 2009, 04:02:11 PMb(x) := I believe x is true
`b(x) := `(I believe x is true) = I do not believe x is true
b(`x) := I believe `x is true = I believe x is not true
`b(x) != b(`x)

still sounds like a lot of bx to me...

but yes, saying "I don't believe in Obama" (as in, abilities, whatever) is not the same as saying "I do not believe Obama exists"

Quote from: Ketsy on October 09, 2009, 03:54:40 PM
No.

The culprit is an illusion of duality.  What you're thinking is similar to this:  If a person is either good or evil, then saying I do not believe they are good implies that I believe they are evil, *only* if you have to believe one or the other.  You can say *both* 'I do not believe they are good' and 'I do not believe they are evil' if you aren't sure one way or the other.

Interesting and I would agree that !good != evil.  But my problem with this is that good and evil are contrary traits, whereas all we have in the previous examples where variations of expression in belief founded on the *same* trait, i.e. that there isn´t beer

Quote
The same applies to 'God'.  You can believe there is God, believe there is no god, or you can be unsure either way.  If I am unsure I can say 'I do not believe there is God', without implying that 'I believe there is no God'.

I honestly can´t discern a substantive difference between those two statements.  Surely if one is unsure, it is that you don´t know if there is a god or not...and *that* seems very different from where you put the negation to me.

Quote from: Kait on October 09, 2009, 04:02:11 PM
Let's put it this way... are you actively denying the existence of all the specific people you've never heard of, or do you merely have no positive belief in their existence?

Well, neither because the existence of other people is credible, whether I have heard of them or not. 

Quote
The negation of belief is the absence of belief.
If you say "God does not exist", that's a positive statement of belief and not the negation of belief.
Whereas "I do not believe in God" is the absence of a positive belief in God, just the same as the absence of a positive belief in all the people you've never heard of.
[...]

I confess the distinction is too subtle for me to discern.  An agnostic position inherently allows for the possibility of existence whereas neither belief in non-existence or non-belief in existence allow for that...at least not in the way I grok the written language.

Not that I want to argue the point, it is more that I cannot discern a point of significance to debate in the first place, if you know what I mean!

Ooo ooo... try this one:

If someone is never ever confronted with the idea of the divine, she utterly lacks belief.  If someone has heard of deities, but isn't interested, she also lacks belief.  If someone is raised Catholic, and then becomes a "hard" atheist who positively denies God, she's certainly got a belief.

QuoteThe fact is, I was born with male genitals but I believe I am a woman.
Which should I use to guide my life, the facts or my belief? Religion is the same.
True belief is very personal, based on personal experience and insight.

It is not that you believe you are a women it is that you want to be a women. It can be debated what a women is, or what culture is in relation to physical and mental gender stereotyping, or what is comfortable for you. But the fact that you have genitals that do not match the cultural definition how you feel is not a belief.

Ah...the age old subject of belief...
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Nero:  As a fellow agnostic (which will probably only show that even in agnosticism there is variety), I don't think that it need be one or the other.
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Personally, I look at it like this:
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There really isn't solid proof of god's existence.  (finewine's 'godless geeks' links point out many of the logical fallacies used by many as proofs)
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However, there isn't any way that god's existence can be completely dis-proven. No matter how many theories are plied, or fossils dug-up, there is always the possibility that things exist that are beyond our means to confirm, and beyond our ability to sense.
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Which, of course, is why we call religions "Faiths."  They aren't based on facts...they're based on beliefs.
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Most people are taught a religion from the time they are born, and stay with the same one throughout their life.  They don't really choose their religion, as much as they don't think to question the one that has been chosen for them.
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Currently, there are about 22 "major" religion classifications (those with over 500,000 members), derived from over 4,000 different religions.   If you also include historical religions that have died out, the number increases exponentially.  In short, there are a ton of different belief systems out there that one could possibly choose.  How one believes in a god can vary greatly.
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More often than not, what  someone believes boils down to what they want to believe. "I want to believe that god is benevolent"  "I want to know X." "I want to believe in an afterlife." "I want to believe that science can explain everything." etc, etc...
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While following one's own desires can be a good way to bring personal comfort, they are a poor way to determine truth.  (And so the question should be asked, what are you looking for in a religion?)
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For me, truth is far more important than comfort.
I don't believe in any specific god...but I don't deny the possibility that a god could exist.  I'm open to any proof that might be out there.  But in knowing the practical foundational aspects of faith and belief, I'm don't expect to see anything that would constitute proof.  Therefore, I can either run myself ragged trying to prove the un-proveable...or I can accept that I don't...and cannot...know.
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It is no shame to admit one's own ignorance. 
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"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."

There is not god. Sin does not exist and there is literally no way to actually go to hell. I used to be a believer and was on a 'born again' path and was riding down the rode listening to the bible on cassette and it hit me..angry god, jealous god, incest, stone your kid to death, fallen angels, dinosaurs, etc. At that very moment I became liberated. All the guilt that I had because of my belief in god had vanished. I have never turned back since and am loving it.

Dana,

Friend of mine posted this on Facebook the other day, he's got a way with words.

If your God hates what you hate, then it's certain you've made him in your image.

Quote from: heatherrose on October 11, 2009, 12:06:09 AM
Dana,

Were you pissed off at "God" or what some domineering politician wrote claiming
to have received HIS marching orders directly from "The Almighty"?

No, I wasn't pissed off at anyone and politics had nothing to do with it.

Quote from: Miniar on October 11, 2009, 08:01:27 AM
Friend of mine posted this on Facebook the other day, he's got a way with words.

If your God hates what you hate, then it's certain you've made him in your image.

I like that!   Nicely said.

Quote from: heatherrose on October 11, 2009, 12:16:27 PM

Organized religion is nothing but politics.

It is also a trained culture and cultist organized community.

Quote from: heatherrose on October 11, 2009, 12:16:27 PM

Organized religion is nothing but politics.

Organized politics is nothing but religion.

Quote from: finewine on October 09, 2009, 04:37:05 PM
I confess the distinction is too subtle for me to discern.  An agnostic position inherently allows for the possibility of existence whereas neither belief in non-existence or non-belief in existence allow for that...at least not in the way I grok the written language.

Not that I want to argue the point, it is more that I cannot discern a point of significance to debate in the first place, if you know what I mean!

It's a fault of the language we're using to talk about this (which is a fault of language in general, not this).

If you do not believe in the existence of God, you can be in a number of possible situations:

1) Unaware of the concept of God in the first place
2) Unsure about the existence of God
3) Believe that there is no God.

English has a way of making negations connote assertions.  'I do not believe in God' *can* be taken to mean 'I believe there is no God' especially when spoken verbally where emphasis can be placed differently.  Consider 'I do NOT have a belief in God' versus 'I do not have a *belief* in God'  One statement negates the belief itself, one statement negates the subject of belief.

So an Agnostic falls under case 2, Atheist under case 3, and Child raised by wolves falls under case 1 .

Quote from: heatherrose on October 11, 2009, 12:16:27 PM

Organized religion is nothing but politics.

The operating word in 'Organized religion' is *organized*, and there is little difference between organized religion, organized politics, organized rebellion, and organized terrorism.  Throughout history each has been associated with the other consistently and systematically.  The only point of contention is who has power and who wants to claim power.

Nothing is ever so black and white. Plenty of religious people that doubt their faith, and plenty of athiestic people that still wonder. I think Richard Dawkins explained it best in "The God Delusion", the different types of people. Believers, many levels of agnostic, and atheist.

There are those who 100% believe in an omnipotent creator, and will kill and die for it.
There are those who believe but aren't about to stone a neighbor for eating fish on tuesday.
There are those who are on the fence. And don't commit one way or the other
There are those who think its highly unlikely, but not entirely impossible
And finally, those who see no evidence, therefore it is not there.

And plenty variations between

I personally fall into a catagory of agnostic, leaning heavily to atheist. Because of my nature, I cannot rule out an unknown entirely, but I'm quite sure theres no boogey man in my closet.

-note- I personally feel that organized religion of all sorts is the biggest hoax in the world, and best manipulation tactic ever.