I don't know about "maintaining some sense of masculinity in order to be a whole person", however, I do know that my male existence has most certainly defined the woman I am.  I've indicated this to one or two others.  While I abhor my male self, it is nevertheless a part of my existence.  The experiences I've had in my male role with all its hardships, turbulence, emotions (good and bad), love of family, etc., have all contributed to my growth as a woman.  There is no way I can deny that part of me.  Doing so would be a lie.  I don't have to like it.  I just have to be able to take what I've learned and apply it to my female life.  In the end, perhaps I'll be a better woman for it.  I can't adequately express in words how much I despise my life as a man, but I most certainly cannot ignore it, I can only try to apply the good aspects of that life to my life as a woman.
I hope this all makes sense.  Hugs.

Quote from: chrysalis on October 01, 2009, 05:32:26 AM
The title is deliberately misleading, so please, for the love of god, do not think that this is my position. I'm honestly not going to respond to you if you act like I am in any way defending this. OK?

I was reading this article here on closeted cross dressers and saw the following quote.

This was written, apparently, by a Gender Therapist. Although it was written in '98 so I guess there is some leeway to be given. But my big question here is...Really?

This goes against everything I understood about TS. I don't think that even having a concept of masculinity or femininity is necessary for a person to live, but this? Really?

I'd love to hear any opinions.

I think that the person is perhaps a little confused on definitions... viewing m2fs as solely full time cds that go all the way.


HOWEVER, There is another possible interpretation of thier point... That m2fs shouldnt entirely exclude 'masculine' things to gain a sense of validation. Perhaps like wearing trousers, hanging around guys, talking to guys... slobbing down a bit... ALl the things that natal women do that are perhaps a tad masculine. I think it just means dont stop doing things if you dont want to. Be who you want to be to be a whole person. If theres no masculine in that.... well, thats you.

I dont think the therapist was suggesting that m2fs run around belching, farting, and peeing standing up to get some 'guy time' hehe.

Katherine, I very much understand what you are saying.  My past has formed me.  My male experiences, my struggle to be a man even though I never thought of myself as one, even my feeble attempts to be a "guy".  (Talk about failure. )

I was never very masculine.  People saw me as a man.  I saw myself as male.  But masculine?  I don't think so.

I thought of myself as CD because I didn't know what else to think of myself as.  I wasn't ready to admit I was TS.  I thought I was a gay man who, unfortunately, was exclusively attracted to women.  (Can you spell confusion?)  I didn't have a good label for myself.

Each of us is an amalgam of our heredity and experiences, some of which are gendered.  I am a woman who was at times accepted into exclusively male situations.  I see that as giving a richness to my experience that many don't have the opportunity for.  I have many regrets in my life, but I look forward to trying to create fewer in the future.

Now I know that I am a woman.  This is where I belong in the world.  I am also without a doubt a transsexual.  I still get "sirred" and "he'd" sometimes.  I am some crazy concoction of male and female traits and physical attributes, just as every human is.  But that doesn't mean I'm not a woman.

- Kate

Quote from: K8 on October 12, 2009, 09:04:47 AM
My male experiences, my struggle to be a man even though I never thought of myself as one, even my feeble attempts to be a "guy".  (Talk about failure. )

Oh my gosh Kate, this reminds me of something my mom said after I came out to her as trans (well, after she guessed and I confirmed it, I guess is more accurate, lol). I said something about how "I always *tried* to be a girl, but it was just so hard, it didn't come naturally to me, I had to 'force' it consciously." and my mom replied "Yeah, that makes complete sense, you were always so *bad* at being a girl!" Haha, yeah she was right, I really sucked at it. No wonder I always felt like I was in "drag" when I wore dresses... I was!! ;P

Quote from: K8 on October 12, 2009, 09:04:47 AM
I am a woman who was at times accepted into exclusively male situations.  I see that as giving a richness to my experience that many don't have the opportunity for.

I completely agree with this too. I personally will never be a bio-guy. Even if they perfect the body transplant someday (lol), I'll *still* never be a guy who GREW UP AS A GUY. To me, that's unchangeable. I'm a dude who grew up as a girl, and I always will be.

At first that sort of bothered me, and felt like it invalidated my maleness, but after awhile I realized that it only means I have another persepective to look at things from. I can relate to people and experiences as a man, and also as someone who was raised as a girl, was married as a woman, gave birth to my children, lived as a lesbian for a few years, etc. I have a rich history of all these different people I've been: daughter, sister, wife, mother, lesbian partner, boyfriend, parent, son, brother. I've learned from each of these roles, and in each I gave and received love (which in my opinion is why we're all on this spinning rock anyways). So rather than feel disadvantaged by not having had the male childhood I "should" have had, instead I've learned to be grateful for the different sets of eyes I've been granted to look through, and these opportunities to learn and relate and ultimately grow, this has given me.

Hi Kate, I surely understand what you mean by being confused.  I went through much the same when I was growing up.  I was familiar with the terms gay, bi, cd, and ->-bleeped-<-.  Never heard of a TS.  Thought I was a gay ->-bleeped-<-.  A few years later I finally figured it out.  Ended up over time doing all the "manly" things to force myself into being what I'm not.  Big waste of time and denial.
I guess so many of us have gone through this phase.  It's interesting how many there are here that are past our prime and finally coming to grips with our true selves.

Quote from: Dianna on October 12, 2009, 12:23:24 AM
I have never ever thought of myself as a "crossdresser". That term I put in with ->-bleeped-<-'s.

A person contemplating GRS etc or  already been through same is NOT a CD.   I find it offensive.

Well it must be hard for you to come here and experience different ideas.

I don't know why a CD would suddenly cease to be a CD only upon contemplation of GRS etc. There is a reason you have to go through therapy before a doctor will perform GRS (in the U.S. at least) and that is because many people end up confused about themselves and GRS is not necessarily right for everyone who seeks it. Though some people still make the jump to Thailand etc. without a doctor's note and transition anyway. So it is indeed possible for someone to willingly get a sex change and still classify mentally as a CD.

Well Chrysalis, it's just a term (CD) that was rarely  used in the circles when I was pre-op and even post-op.

I certainly don't wish to put CD's down, but in my circle in my late teens and 20's you were a transsexual or a CD, and CD being a person wishing to cross dress but not have surgery, dress for fantasy and other purposes. Two rather different orientations.   I'm well aware that some people may fit both categories, just used very differently in Sydney.

For example in Sydney there is a Government funded Gender Center with 24/7  staff and it accomodates up to 12 people to live in the half-way house whilst they are sorting out their early feelings. They are counselled and put in touch with medics and other therapists.  The centre is for transsexuals/transgenders MTF & FTM , but is usually occupied with MTF.   I worked there for 18 months as a Social Worker.

If we attempt to use the terminology correctly, the CD is usually that bit different to the transsexual or transgender person.

I also never felt i was a CD... I 'did' dress in girls clothes, but my earliest memories have been that I WAS a girl, I never felt a thrill doing it... just... happier.

Quote from: chrysalis on October 01, 2009, 05:32:26 AM
The title is deliberately misleading, so please, for the love of god, do not think that this is my position. I'm honestly not going to respond to you if you act like I am in any way defending this. OK?

I was reading this article here on closeted cross dressers and saw the following quote.

This was written, apparently, by a Gender Therapist. Although it was written in '98 so I guess there is some leeway to be given. But my big question here is...Really?

This goes against everything I understood about TS. I don't think that even having a concept of masculinity or femininity is necessary for a person to live, but this? Really?

I'd love to hear any opinions.

After reading the article I personally don't see any problem with what seems a fairly innocent off the cuff remark.  The author could have said any women need to explore their masculine side etc.  I believe that the author used TS as they are often associated with the TG community.

Lets face it everyone explores their opposite side whether they are males or females, in fact there are those whose masculine side is very pronounced; Tomboys come to mind.  There's nothing wrong with that, having traits from the opposite gender should not be an affront to us as TS, it's just apart of how everyone is.

-={LR}=-