There was recently a survey done where they toke pictures of peoples' faces and asked a select group of people to identify if that person was either male or female...

My question to everyone is; How do we as humans tell the gender of a person we see? Like if you were to walk to a park sit down and look around at the people; How/What lets us as humans know the gender of another person passing by?

Is it something in our brain? If so...Then how does our brain work to guess the gender of people 

LOL! I've just been curious about this for a while, to me it's weird but yet cool to see how and why the body and mind of humans work.

You said the question was between male and female, the sex, not gender. Sex and gender and different. Sex is of the biological body and gender is of the mind/self identity, identity of masculine and feminine within the mind.
So their question is right they were just relating to the physical shape of peoples faces!
To figure out gender physically would come more from body movement/body language, from the mind being used to move the body, even on a sub-conscious level. IMO.
They worded the question carefully but right.
S.x

ok lets see if i can remember this from college the brain records various images that we see threw out our life times. by association we learn what society sees as male or female. Hence we are tought the difference in facial shapes mannerisms physical proportions etc.
taking that a step further then when we see an individual in say a park our brain instantly records all the pertinant data hight weight hair length and color etc. it then scans its memory for a match and assigns gender to the person that is why androgenous people cause the brain to pause and move the image to the conscious part of the mind. the person isnt giving off  enough cues for the brain to assign a gender, and it basically registers in the conscious mind as what is this.
i often people watch from my 16th floor balcony and i can tell male from female from that distance up in the air with only the occasional error. IE if a guy has long hair the brain will look for other cues such as movment, dress etc to assign gender because it has registered other males with long hair
jessica

Quote from: Shannon on October 19, 2009, 02:02:23 AM
To figure out gender physically would come more from body movement/body language, from the mind being used to move the body, even on a sub-conscious level. IMO.

I would suggest that is a limited criteria for judging internal gender.

I would recommend gender be judged on the whole and it is very subjective to the audience in question.

Though on the original question about faces; ask any 3 year old what gender someone is by there face, apparently the ability to tell gender (or sex may be more accurate) by the face is an early lesson (or instinct).

This pertains more to "sex" than "gender"...but I recently read a photoshop tutorial that outlined the basic shape principles of a male and female face broken into a 'mask' form and laid over others...something as small as the angle of someone's jaw in relation to the ear or how far out someone's forehead protrudes can register male or female. These are the same shapes we subconsciously catalog throughout our entire lives and reference. Things like vocal pitch and timbre can also set off what we reference for the sexes.

As far as "gender" goes...well, body language and how you present yourself are stereotypically referenced as well in our brains, least I believe...we go throughout our lives seeing how males and females generally act, and if there is an anomaly in behaviour, we automatically rationalize it by classifying people as "femmy" or "butch". Though we know that presentation on the outside isn't necessarily the true gender of the person mentally, these cues are all a lot of outsiders have to go on.

I suck at expressing myself, my point more often than not gets misunderstood and it's my fault I use the wrong wording. *decides to take a break from the internet/forums*. :-/

Quote from: Shannon on October 19, 2009, 03:23:09 AM
I suck at expressing myself, my point more often than not gets misunderstood and it's my fault I use the wrong wording. *decides to take a break from the internet/forums*. :-/

Nothing wrong with expression hon!

Quote from: Tetra on October 19, 2009, 01:53:27 AM

Is it something in our brain? If so...Then how does our brain work to guess the gender of people 

Yes it seems that it is something in our visual center that does gender identification in about one-third of a second.  Our brains are hardwired to try to locate a persons face, their identity and their gender.  From there other identification of gender occurs if an ambiguous result is returned, such as body shape or clothing style, though this takes longer.

So, the old saw about men staring at a woman's chest before their face is false.  It is actually the other way around.

This all developed so that our monkey ancestors could make more monkeys before they got eaten by a tiger or something.

-Sandy

Being Transgendered I do know that there is a difference between gender/sex but in a way being "third person" in their view, I basically asked the question in the format as if I was a outsider looking in.

Also I like everyone's answers...They are diverse and different and gave me inside into things I didn't know. EX: Jaw relation to ear, guys stare at the face before breast.

Again, also! Shannon, we're not here to judge! Ahah! Funny how we are judged, It would be in a way hypocritical to judge someone when you are constantly judged! >_<

So please....Speak your mind to your hearts content!!! 

One thing I find suprising is that we can glance at someone and register physical male/female etc. But when asked a few seconds later to describe the person we saw we usually fail. Unless we have been professionally trained as in the police force etc. So our brains take in massive amounts of information that we process then immediately forget.

As a case in point most eyewitness descriptions are way off what the person looks like. Some of this is in poor processing and description. But I think some is also due to "failing" to remember.

I think our mind's use a combination of things to determine gender, like size+hair+facial features+body shape. But also, there are the behavioral cues, like the way a person walks, moves their hands and speaks. I really believe those cues can make the difference when other factors are not definite.

Awhile back, I was at a crowded auction. Across the room from me was a tall, stocky person with shortish curly hair wearing a genderless uniform. I pondered the person's gender awhile until the person turned such that I noticed a bulge from the chest-- breasts. So, perhaps, if all else fails, wear a prominent bra. Breasts are about as close to an unquestioned visual cue as we can achieve, I think.

Lyric

We look for testosterone markers.  Many testosterone markers = more likely to be male.  Fewer testosterone markers = more likely to be female.  Somewhere in the middle = we often are confused by or might make derogatory comments about - well, not US per say, but you get the idea.

I've noticed that...That people always want to know the gender of someone (Even if it's a complete stranger), Does anyone else find it weird that humans are always curious about things like these? And if someone can't be determined to be either Male/Female, we normally start asking questions to find out.

This is something I find utterly fascinating, and I think it's one of those questions that cuts very deep into the problem how the brain works.

I could tell you the specific things we look for -- particular shades of coloring, angles of bones, patterns of shadow, slight cues in the lips, the nose, the eyebrow ridge, the forehead, the chin, the jaw, plus various other cultural cues -- but you probably know that. I think most people can't really put a finger on these differences, but a lot of trans people are much more aware, since it's so important if you're trans. Either way, it's amazing how automatic and obvious it is. It's so reliable and such a common part of everyday experience that it really upsets up when it doesn't work.

I think a huge part of it is instinctual. Consider babies -- they just love looking at faces. There has to be some instinctual response that triggers that behavior. I think that this instinct might be related to how gender identity comes about -- that is, just as we are programmed to recognize human faces, so we are programmed to recognize faces of our own gender. Whatever else is going on in the brain that might differ between men and women, I think what decides your "brain sex" is what type of face you are programmed to recognize as "like you," regardless of what you look  like yourself.

Well, that's my tentative theory for now, at least.

Part of this tetra i believe is basic biology and survival instincts if you consider animals for instance the male of species often times will kill and even eat the young of its own species. While im not suggesting that humans ever did such a thing i think its built into the genetic code to quickly and correctly identify the gender of the person. Failure to identify male and female would also lead to an infants mortality as it couldnt identify a care taker or someone with the ability to feed it.
jessica

I remember reading long ago that the first thing we notice about someone is their sex.  (Maybe gender - this was before we made a distinction.)  This happens automatically in less than a second.  It is when it is not immediately clear that we look a little closer.  We notice age, size, status, etc. - but the first thing, instinctually, is gender.

Perhaps this is why some people feel threatened by us, because we call into question this primal, instinctive, automatic response.

- Kate

Quote from: K8 on October 22, 2009, 06:39:42 PM
I remember reading long ago that the first thing we notice about someone is their sex.  (Maybe gender - this was before we made a distinction.)  This happens automatically in less than a second.  It is when it is not immediately clear that we look a little closer.  We notice age, size, status, etc. - but the first thing, instinctually, is gender.

Perhaps this is why some people feel threatened by us, because we call into question this primal, instinctive, automatic response.

- Kate

That's something I believe also Kate...Just my two dollar coins worth!

Quote from: Tetra on October 19, 2009, 01:53:27 AM
There was recently a survey done where they toke pictures of peoples' faces and asked a select group of people to identify if that person was either male or female...

My question to everyone is; How do we as humans tell the gender of a person we see? Like if you were to walk to a park sit down and look around at the people; How/What lets us as humans know the gender of another person passing by?

Is it something in our brain? If so...Then how does our brain work to guess the gender of people 

LOL! I've just been curious about this for a while, to me it's weird but yet cool to see how and why the body and mind of humans work.

I must say I disagree with most of these replies as they all seem to mistake physical sex for gender. Physical appearance, face shape is sex not gender, gender is internal, of the mind.
The question was how do we determine gender, not sex.
Personally I would say in a nutshell through body language/movement, speech and the expression of emotion. But of course some people (TG) can hide their real gender in public, but for CIS then sure. imo.
S.x

Quote from: Shannon on October 25, 2009, 09:38:44 PMThe question was how do we determine gender, not sex. Physical appearance, face shape is sex not gender, gender is internal, of the mind.
The question was how do we determine gender, not sex.

Hmm.....

Quote from: Tetra on October 19, 2009, 01:53:27 AMHow do we as humans tell the gender of a person we see? Like if you were to walk to a park sit down and look around at the people; How/What lets us as humans know the gender of another person passing by?

Ah, I see. But your answer was all about physical appearance anyway, which was exactly the point. We determine someone's gender by making the assumption, generally valid, that their gender matches their sex.

If you really want to figure out someone's internal gender, I suggest you employ a Vulcan mind meld. It works perfectly.