Gender dysphoria, I rather like the words.  They seem accurate, descriptive, and appropriate.

What I don't understand is why you must bare your soul to a complete stranger while paying vast sums of money to convince them of something you knew with certainty when you where 4 years old?!  That's one of the reasons depression is associated with 'gender dysphoria'.

No matter what you call it, the medical 'establishment' requires a cubby hole to stick it in.  It makes them think they understand it.

It is required by the WPATH SOC.  In order to get anything.


Janet

Quote from: asfsd4214 on October 25, 2009, 03:59:37 AM
If you can pay for it, maybe you should be able to get it.

But that's an entirely different situation, cancer can be scientifically proven as a condition you suffer from.
GID on the other hand, is entirely subjective no matter who diagnosis it. If a therapist diagnoses it, they are only doing so based on what you have told them. Is that any more accurate than you who is actually LIVING it can do?

First of all, giving someone a treatment just because they can pay for it is irresponsible.

Secondly, my point wasn't whether or not you can prove the existence of the disorder, but the fact that there might be a lot more going on than just GID.  A person may claim to have symptoms that they don't have just for a diagnosis.  A person may also attribute their current symptoms to a disorder that they don't have.  Without a diagnosis, you're not treating anything.

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on October 25, 2009, 03:14:50 AM
It's not a disorder.  Just like being homosexual isn't one.

Bam.  Case closed.

All of the insurance stuff is needlessly complicated.

Why do people think it's a disorder?

Because if you compare it to homosexuality, that says there is nothing wrong.  If nothing is wrong, then HRT, FFS, and SRS go out the window.  Not to mention any chance of insurance coverage.  If you want any kind of treatment, it has to be a disorder. 

Quote from: Ladyrider on October 25, 2009, 07:29:24 AM
It would seem for many folks in the US that this is all about insurance coverage and the funding of treatment.  I thing it is wrong to go after the medical community, a community that for the most part recognizes our condition and supports us, we or in the case of the US, we should be going after the insurance companies.

-={LR}=-

That's kind of been my point all along.

Why do doctors not prescribe HRT without you going to therapy?  Insurance.  Why do you have to wait 12 months after living full time for SRS?  Insurance.  I know that the WPATH guidelines say that, but the insurance companies are the ones enforcing it.


I will say it again.  A mental illness doesn't mean it's in your head.  Bipolar, depression, etc, are not mental illnesses that are only in your head.  They are caused by mental, physical, and external sources.  GID is caused by the same types of stimuli.  Mental, physical, and external stimuli.  You can't claim that GID isn't a mental illness and overlook other mental illnesses that have the same diagnostic criteria.

What about the fact that SRS used to be covered regularly?  What stopped that from being covered?  I know we aren't necessarily talking about SRS and insurance coverage, but it seems that insurance coverage is the reason most people want it removed from the DSM.  The other reason is so that people think that we are 'normal' like homosexuals.

The difference between us and homosexuals is the fact that we are seeking treatment for it, and they are not.  Wanting treatment implies that something is wrong.  If you want to be normal, you will probably have to pay for it out of pocket.

I still want to know what happens after it gets removed from the DSM?  Where will it go?  How will it be diagnosed?  Who Diagnoses it?  Should it be diagnosed?  What is the treatment?  Should there be treatment?

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Post Merge: October 25, 2009, 01:09:17 PM

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Lastly, I am stepping out of this conversation.

I really only wanted to know everyone's thoughts and reasons.  I don't want to argue this forever.

Well, I see that you're stepping out. But let me just add something anyway. For mental disorders, treatment focuses on the brain. We've got therapy, chemicals, and other brain-focused treatments like ECT. The recognized treatment for GID--and I really do loathe the term "GID"--focuses on the body. And it's the only treatment that seems to work.

Are there any other so-called mental disorders for which this is true? If so, should they perhaps be taken out of the DSM?

Quote from: Becca on October 24, 2009, 06:47:11 PMI do not feel mentally disordered (at least not because I'm trans, lol).

Well, I've got AD/HD and don't feel like that makes me "mentally disordered", but considering some of the disjointed real-life conversations I've had, I'm sure most others would beg to differ.  Furthermore, the vast majority of clinical sociopaths are of the opinion that they're perfectly normal, but I think everybody else here would agree that sociopathy is a mental disorder.

I have no real problem with GID/transsexualism being a mental disorder -- what I DO have a problem with is the American psycological associations are basically ignoring the fact that over 98% of all people given a GID diagnosis are reported to have vastly improved lives and mental states during and after the physical transition process -- meaning that this is basically the only "mental disorder" that is regularly denied treatment, so the APAs are essentially contradicting themselves.  That's where I have a problem -- that they first claim "it's a mental disorder" and then consistently deny patients the only consistently proved-effective treatment for that "mental disorder".

On the other hand, there is more and more evidence gathered every day that there is a massive physical / medical component to gender identity, suggesting that TS persons may be closer to Intersexed persons, in that it's a biological reality of their being.

Quote from: Valerie Elizabeth on October 24, 2009, 07:04:33 PMI don't understand the logic there.  Mood disorders are listed in the DSM (bipolar, depression, etc) and they are considered "real" medical conditions and they get treatment.  How would removing GID from the DSM accomplish that?

Also, according to tsroadmap :
"A little background: SRS was routinely covered in the US until a couple of medical articles came out in the late 1970's showing high suicide rates among post-operative women. This came at the same time a couple of prominent gender clinics were closed, notably Johns Hopkins.

The insurance companies pounced on these events as a chance to decry the procedure as elective, cosmetic, or experimental. It's been an uphill battle since. "

At least according to some of the older TS women, as in those who transitioned in the 1960s and early 1970s, I've discussed this with, these "high suicide rates" were more due to the natures of how those old gender clinics were run.  Patients were essentially shamed into cutting themselves off from all friends and family, and were all but explicitly forced to basically "compete" for who was more sexually attractive to the doctors in group therapy sessions.  The old clinics were seriously messed up, but for some reason, this is still a fact that is rarely brought to light.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on October 24, 2009, 07:55:08 PMBy being listed as a mental disorder, we will never get any medical establishment to take us seriously.

I've been diagnosed with Adult-type AD/HD and am rarely taken seriously by anybody.  My best friend is severely bipolar and still constantly runs into people, including the occasional doctor at the hospital she volunteers at, who thinks she can somehow just magically "snap out of" her depressive states.  I don't think "to be taken seriously" is a good-enough cause to remove GID from the DSM because there are dozens of "mental disorders" that I think we can all agree are near-crippling conditions for a person to live with, and those who have them are still rarely, if ever, taken seriously.

But I think we can agree that removing "bipolar disorder" from the DSM would eradicate any access to proper care that my friend and others who have that disorder currently have, and it could very well lead them to be taken even less seriously because there's not even a community of professionals agreeing that there's something the matter with their mental/emotional state.

If GID is going to be in the DSM, then the APAs need to allow treatment for it.  That's the real problem.

I haven't seen any consistent studies of, say, MRI or other types of brain scans of pre-HRT and post-HRT TS persons that would serve as evidence that this is, in fact, more biochemical than psychological.  That gender identity is apparently determined pre-natally in interesting, but it's not enough to do much more than posit interesting hypotheses.  And what if somebody's pre-HRT MRI somehow suggested that they weren't TS and were thus denied treatment that way?  I know if I had some sort of scan like that and was told "well, your brain suggests that you're really a woman, so you can't have man-juice" -- well, frankly, it would crush me and I'd be suicidal.  A mental/emotional diagnosis would be the only way to guarantee TS persons, across the board, treatment -- at least as soon as these associations can finally re-allow the only treatment proved effective.

Quote from: Valerie Elizabeth on October 25, 2009, 12:46:38 PM
Lastly, I am stepping out of this conversation.

I really only wanted to know everyone's thoughts and reasons.  I don't want to argue this forever.

I think that's wise, especially we've reached a point where I feel like you are simply ignoring half of the replies you get and then rephrasing the same questions.

Almost all of your post then I have already responded to...

Quote
I still want to know what happens after it gets removed from the DSM?  Where will it go?  How will it be diagnosed?  Who Diagnoses it?  Should it be diagnosed?  What is the treatment?  Should there be treatment?

Quote
I don't know where GID should be located, where is AIS located? If GID is an intersex condition in some or most cases, it should be treated as one. As for who would diagnose it, I suppose a doctor would have too. It has to be diagnosed in order to provide treatment, but unfortunately we don't have any objective way to diagnose it as a physical disorder at this time. But I don't think assuming it's nothing more than a psychological disorder, which is what its presence in the DSM does for most people, is a great situation either.

Quote
Because if you compare it to homosexuality, that says there is nothing wrong.  If nothing is wrong, then HRT, FFS, and SRS go out the window.  Not to mention any chance of insurance coverage.  If you want any kind of treatment, it has to be a disorder. 

Quote
my point was that homosexuality is not considered a mental illness, and neither should GID. But in just the same was as multiple sclerosis is not a mental illness even though it causes damage in the brain, it still requires treatment.

Quote
I will say it again.  A mental illness doesn't mean it's in your head.  Bipolar, depression, etc, are not mental illnesses that are only in your head.  They are caused by mental, physical, and external sources.  GID is caused by the same types of stimuli.  Mental, physical, and external stimuli.  You can't claim that GID isn't a mental illness and overlook other mental illnesses that have the same diagnostic criteria.

QuoteOnce again, ALL mental disorders could be classified as physical disorders in the sense that they are all physically apart of the brain structure and/or chemistry.

I don't however think something should be classed as a mental disorder unless it's actually a disorder in the functioning of the mind, which I don't believe GID is. Depression is a disorder where the mind no longer see's thing's clearly, and a shroud of hopelessness washes over everything. That is a mental illness because it is an illness of the mind.

Having a gender identity opposite your body characteristics however, is no more an illness of the mind than an illness of the body. And is no more a mental illness than homosexuality.

QuoteWhat about the fact that SRS used to be covered regularly?  What stopped that from being covered?  I know we aren't necessarily talking about SRS and insurance coverage, but it seems that insurance coverage is the reason most people want it removed from the DSM.  The other reason is so that people think that we are 'normal' like homosexuals.

No, if you would kindly reread most if not all of the posts made on this thread, I think you will find is that it's because most of us don't consider it a mental illness.

QuoteSecondly, my point wasn't whether or not you can prove the existence of the disorder, but the fact that there might be a lot more going on than just GID.  A person may claim to have symptoms that they don't have just for a diagnosis.  A person may also attribute their current symptoms to a disorder that they don't have.  Without a diagnosis, you're not treating anything.

That's exactly how the diagnosis is made right now. Why claim to have a set of symptoms, and they either believe us or they do not. There is no greater tool used to diagnose us at this time.

QuoteFirst of all, giving someone a treatment just because they can pay for it is irresponsible.

That's how most cosmetic operations are handled. If we were given responsibility for ourselves, only we would be to blame for being irresponsible.

I for one am seriously tired of being protected from myself, for the love of god stop helping!. 

Quote from: Ladyrider on October 25, 2009, 07:29:24 AM
Ya I'll get the wrath of Khan for this but what the heck...

Firstly I have no problem with GID being listed as a mental disorder, it certainly isn't a physical disorder, for why would I have tried self mutilation to get rid of my male genitals, and why would I have planned suicide to get away from the pain?  My genitals didn't tell my brain that they should be female.

-={LR}=-

No, but maybe your brain told your brain that it should be female. If that is the issue and it is an issue of abnormal brain structures but your mind is otherwise perfectly healthy, then it's more a physical disorder than a mental one.

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Post Merge: October 25, 2009, 04:07:48 PM

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Quote from: YoungSoulRebel on October 25, 2009, 04:37:03 PM
Well, I've got AD/HD and don't feel like that makes me "mentally disordered", but considering some of the disjointed real-life conversations I've had, I'm sure most others would beg to differ.  Furthermore, the vast majority of clinical sociopaths are of the opinion that they're perfectly normal, but I think everybody else here would agree that sociopathy is a mental disorder.

So then who deems us sane or not?

Psychiatrists? Maybe they're insane too.

Ultimately the only truth to a mental disorder is if it can be scientifically proven, which most can't, or if it causes distress and problems in your life.

If you're hearing voices for instance, it's quite obvious you have a mental disorder, because your mind is hearing things that aren't there.

If your point is that we can't judge if we are sane or not, then that means that everybody in the world is "potentially insane" (I think that's probably how most psychiatrists view the world  ), but most people don't see a psychiatrist unless they're experiencing problems pertaining to the mind. GID CAN be viewed as a problem pertaining to the mind, but it can be just as viewed as a problem pertaining to the body, if it could be of a neurological nature. And there is growing evidence that it is.

Quote from: YoungSoulRebel on October 25, 2009, 04:37:03 PM
I have no real problem with GID/transsexualism being a mental disorder -- what I DO have a problem with is the American psycological associations are basically ignoring the fact that over 98% of all people given a GID diagnosis are reported to have vastly improved lives and mental states during and after the physical transition process -- meaning that this is basically the only "mental disorder" that is regularly denied treatment, so the APAs are essentially contradicting themselves.  That's where I have a problem -- that they first claim "it's a mental disorder" and then consistently deny patients the only consistently proved-effective treatment for that "mental disorder".

Because if it's a mental disorder, then transition isn't curing ANYTHING. It's like administering morphine for a broken arm, the arm's still broken, you just can't feel it anymore.

And that's the way they see it too, and it's all the more reason GID shouldn't be considered a mental disorder. There's no evidence that it is one, just a constantly decreasing lack of evidence to the contrary.

Quote from: YoungSoulRebel on October 25, 2009, 04:37:03 PM
On the other hand, there is more and more evidence gathered every day that there is a massive physical / medical component to gender identity, suggesting that TS persons may be closer to Intersexed persons, in that it's a biological reality of their being.

At least according to some of the older TS women, as in those who transitioned in the 1960s and early 1970s, I've discussed this with, these "high suicide rates" were more due to the natures of how those old gender clinics were run.  Patients were essentially shamed into cutting themselves off from all friends and family, and were all but explicitly forced to basically "compete" for who was more sexually attractive to the doctors in group therapy sessions.  The old clinics were seriously messed up, but for some reason, this is still a fact that is rarely brought to light.

Today's clinics often aren't much better.

http://www.samesame.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=9537

Quote from: YoungSoulRebel on October 25, 2009, 04:37:03 PM
I haven't seen any consistent studies of, say, MRI or other types of brain scans of pre-HRT and post-HRT TS persons that would serve as evidence that this is, in fact, more biochemical than psychological.  That gender identity is apparently determined pre-natally in interesting, but it's not enough to do much more than posit interesting hypotheses.  And what if somebody's pre-HRT MRI somehow suggested that they weren't TS and were thus denied treatment that way?  I know if I had some sort of scan like that and was told "well, your brain suggests that you're really a woman, so you can't have man-juice" -- well, frankly, it would crush me and I'd be suicidal.  A mental/emotional diagnosis would be the only way to guarantee TS persons, across the board, treatment -- at least as soon as these associations can finally re-allow the only treatment proved effective.

Really? I haven't.

As far as I'm aware the only brain structures that have been found to be consistently different are the BSTC, which is too small to be imaged and likely not a cause but more another symptom anyway.

And who's to say that if such a scan were available, it wouldn't find that 99% of the people on this forum legitimately have it. Just as detransition and regret are extremely low, feeling such a compelling need to change your body characteristics is likely very infrequently caused by purely mental reasons.

And wouldn't it be liberating to know that you're not crazy, that you're not delusional, that everything you're feeling has a tangible cause and that you were right? You ARE a man or woman, instead of the perception psychiatrists have that "you're not, you just want to be".

Quote from: Arch on October 25, 2009, 01:23:47 PM
I really do loathe the term "GID"--focuses on the body. And it's the only treatment that seems to work.

I actually think that GID is one of the very few terms that is somewhat decent in the transgenders medical world. Although I don't like its psychiatric or DSM origins, it's faaar better than "transexual" and related terms.

Quote from: asfsd4214 on October 25, 2009, 04:45:34 PMNo, if you would kindly reread most if not all of the posts made on this thread, I think you will find is that it's because most of us don't consider it a mental illness.

But if you consider the typical person with clinical sociopathy or certain forms of schizophrenia, you'd know that simply feeling that oneself is somehow disorder-free is not a good enough reason to remove GID from the DSM.

I myself, prior to starting the transition process, felt this was something so crippling that first I went through a highly self-destructive phase and then a severely agoraphobic phase.  In fact, I can't say that any of the TS persons I know personally describes their pre-transition lives in anything but negative terms riddled with negative feelings -- that seems pretty basic symptoms for many untreated mental disorders.  Heck, many anorectic persons claim that they "don't feel mentally disordered", but they way they live seems to severely point to the contrary.  Simply saying "I don't feel like this is a mental disorder" isn't good enough for the APAs.

Having been in these arguments for the last five years, I have yet to see somebody in the "it's not a mental disorder" camp posit a viable alternative to TS persons getting and consistently receiving treatment -- after all, there are no pre-HRT and post-HRT studies of MRIs performed on the same groups of TS persons to verify that this is a neurological form of Intersexxuality, which would make it a treatable physical disorder.  Those who are at least ambivalent to GID's inclusion in the DSM of mental disorders, on the other hand, all seem to at least be of the opinion that the APAs' and insurance agencies willingness to actually treat it needs to change.

Quote from: YoungSoulRebel on October 25, 2009, 05:13:08 PM
But if you consider the typical person with clinical sociopathy or certain forms of schizophrenia, you'd know that simply feeling that oneself is somehow disorder-free is not a good enough reason to remove GID from the DSM.

It's a good enough reason to not state that most people here want it removed purely for insurance reasons. 

Quote from: YoungSoulRebel on October 25, 2009, 05:13:08 PM
I myself, prior to starting the transition process, felt this was something so crippling that first I went through a highly self-destructive phase and then a severely agoraphobic phase.  In fact, I can't say that any of the TS persons I know personally describes their pre-transition lives in anything but negative terms riddled with negative feelings -- that seems pretty basic symptoms for many untreated mental disorders.  Heck, many anorectic persons claim that they "don't feel mentally disordered", but they way they live seems to severely point to the contrary.  Simply saying "I don't feel like this is a mental disorder" isn't good enough for the APAs.

Having been in these arguments for the last five years, I have yet to see somebody in the "it's not a mental disorder" camp posit a viable alternative to TS persons getting and consistently receiving treatment -- after all, there are no pre-HRT and post-HRT studies of MRIs performed on the same groups of TS persons to verify that this is a neurological form of Intersexxuality, which would make it a treatable physical disorder.  Those who are at least ambivalent to GID's inclusion in the DSM of mental disorders, on the other hand, all seem to at least be of the opinion that the APAs' and insurance agencies willingness to actually treat it needs to change.

Maybe not having a system would be a better system. If people could simply elect to undergo HRT like they can cosmetic procedures without psychological evaluation and having to deal with gatekeeper logic, maybe we'd be better off.

Quote from: asfsd4214 on October 25, 2009, 04:45:34 PM
If your point is that we can't judge if we are sane or not, then that means that everybody in the world is "potentially insane" (I think that's probably how most psychiatrists view the world  ), but most people don't see a psychiatrist unless they're experiencing problems pertaining to the mind. GID CAN be viewed as a problem pertaining to the mind, but it can be just as viewed as a problem pertaining to the body, if it could be of a neurological nature. And there is growing evidence that it is.

You seem to be of the mistaken opinion that "mental disorder = insane".  It does not.  I means that there is a mental or emotional or potentially neurochemical peculiarity that differs enough from "average" to gain a diagnosis.  Like I said, I myself have a diagnosis of ADHD -- that's in the DSM, you can look it up.  That doesn't mean that ADHD is "clinical insanity" -- it simply means that i have a mental peculiarity giving me the attention-span of your average ferret.  As I had previously said, my best friend is severely bipolar, but that doesn't make her "insane" -- yet bipolar disorder is in the DSM.

Gee, maybe you should rethink that DSM criteria actually means?

Quote from: asfsd4214 on October 25, 2009, 04:45:34 PM
Because if it's a mental disorder, then transition isn't curing ANYTHING. It's like administering morphine for a broken arm, the arm's still broken, you just can't feel it anymore.

Then why prescribe ritalin to people whith ADHD?  Or lithium to Zoloft or Prozac to people with bipolar disorders?  By your own logic "that's not curing anything" so why not just let my friend go unmedicdated -- I mean, heck, she'll only be alternating between spending weeks at a time in bed and crying and weeks at a time "in total Jim Carey manic-mode" (as she puts it), and completely non-fuctional all the time.  Medication doesn't actually "cure anything", not by your logic, it just somehow magically sets her into a mode where she is living life to her fullest potential.

And here I thought that transitioning (which includes lifelong HRT in the same way my friend is going to be taking medications for the rest of her life) was setting me to a mode where I was living my life to its fullest potential.  Seems that means my friend and I are in a similar position, considering that.

The rest of your response doesn't really prove anything other than that the APAs need to actually treat GID in the only proved-effective form of treatment AND that apparently other people need to get it out of their heads that "mental disorder = crazy".  If you don't want to listen to reason, then I'm done.  I've argued with sound logic here, and I find the brand of logic you've argued against me with to be circular and thus fallacious.  I wish you well with that.

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Post Merge: October 25, 2009, 04:34:26 PM

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Quote from: asfsd4214 on October 25, 2009, 05:17:55 PMMaybe not having a system would be a better system. If people could simply elect to undergo HRT like they can cosmetic procedures without psychological evaluation and having to deal with gatekeeper logic, maybe we'd be better off.

I'm hard pressed to realise how this suggestion would suddenly eradicate the problem some people have voiced of "people will take me more seriously".  Good call -- liken us all to the same realm as people like Mistress Rhiannon (do a search of you're that curious for photos) and other body-modification enthusiasts.  And here i thought my relationship with my penis was closer to what's colloqually known as "phantom limb syndrome" -- that it wasn't all about "wanting to look like ex" but about knowing that there was an incongruency between body and mind.

Quote from: YoungSoulRebel on October 25, 2009, 05:29:21 PM
You seem to be of the mistaken opinion that "mental disorder = insane".  It does not.  I means that there is a mental or emotional or potentially neurochemical peculiarity that differs enough from "average" to gain a diagnosis.  Like I said, I myself have a diagnosis of ADHD -- that's in the DSM, you can look it up.  That doesn't mean that ADHD is "clinical insanity" -- it simply means that i have a mental peculiarity giving me the attention-span of your average ferret.  As I had previously said, my best friend is severely bipolar, but that doesn't make her "insane" -- yet bipolar disorder is in the DSM.

Gee, maybe you should rethink that DSM criteria actually means?

It was a poor choice of words on my part, by insane what I meant was "mentally ill"

Quote from: YoungSoulRebel on October 25, 2009, 05:29:21 PM
And here I thought that transitioning (which includes lifelong HRT in the same way my friend is going to be taking medications for the rest of her life) was setting me to a mode where I was living my life to its fullest potential.  Seems that means my friend and I are in a similar position, considering that.

The rest of your response doesn't really prove anything other than that the APAs need to actually treat GID in the only proved-effective form of treatment AND that apparently other people need to get it out of their heads that "mental disorder = crazy".  If you don't want to listen to reason, then I'm done.  I've argued with sound logic here, and I find the brand of logic you've argued against me with to be circular and thus fallacious.  I wish you well with that.

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Post Merge: October 25, 2009, 03:34:26 PM

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I'm hard pressed to realise how this suggestion would suddenly eradicate the problem some people have voiced of "people will take me more seriously".  Good call -- liken us all to the same realm as people like Mistress Rhiannon (do a search of you're that curious for photos) and other body-modification enthusiasts.  And here i thought my relationship with my penis was closer to what's colloqually known as "phantom limb syndrome" -- that it wasn't all about "wanting to look like ex" but about knowing that there was an incongruency between body and mind.

My use of the word insane was clearly a poor choice, but now you're just looking for something to find fault with. I didn't liken us to anything, you asked what I thought would be a better system, and I gave an example. An EXAMPLE, at no point at all did I so much as imply that we should be considered to be undergoing optional cosmetic surgery, I simply said that a freer, more elective system might be in our interests.

Quote from: YoungSoulRebel on October 25, 2009, 05:29:21 PM
Then why prescribe ritalin to people whith ADHD?  Or lithium to Zoloft or Prozac to people with bipolar disorders?  By your own logic "that's not curing anything" so why not just let my friend go unmedicdated -- I mean, heck, she'll only be alternating between spending weeks at a time in bed and crying and weeks at a time "in total Jim Carey manic-mode" (as she puts it), and completely non-fuctional all the time.  Medication doesn't actually "cure anything", not by your logic, it just somehow magically sets her into a mode where she is living life to her fullest potential.

In a sense, it's not "curing" the problem but rather treating the symptoms, and yes you're right, in that sense it's similar to transition as a treatment for GID.

I would argue that the difference is that in those cases they are treating problems of the mind and mental state of functioning directly. Transition on the other hand is more releaving sources of distress to an otherwise healthy mind.

I have explained this a few times, but perhaps I haven't been clear enough.

I do not feel GID is a mental disorder the way ADHD and Bipolar are, because if you take a step back and stop looking at distress of the mind resulting from being in the wrong body, the mind itself is not ill. In ADHD and Bipolar, there's no question that it's the mind that's abnormal. With GID it's much fuzzier. You could argue that it is also a mental disorder because the mind thinks it's the opposite gender to the body and it shouldn't, but you could also argue that it's not a mental disorder because the mind is not actually abnormal once you stop considering the bodies gender to be the only one relevant. If the minds gender is opposite the body, but otherwise healthy, I do not see how it is a mental disorder. The mind isn't abnormal per se, and neither is the body, but the incompatibility of the two is the source of the problem.

GID is simply too different from the traditional definition of a mental disorder to be considered one, in my opinion.

Quote from: asfsd4214 on October 25, 2009, 06:04:36 PM
It was a poor choice of words on my part, by insane what I meant was "mentally ill"

My use of the word insane was clearly a poor choice, but now you're just looking for something to find fault with. I didn't liken us to anything, you asked what I thought would be a better system, and I gave an example. An EXAMPLE, at no point at all did I so much as imply that we should be considered to be undergoing optional cosmetic surgery, I simply said that a freer, more elective system might be in our interests.

A free-er, more elective system, usually means that the 90% of the world can't afford it.

Quote from: Miniar on October 25, 2009, 06:07:47 PM
A free-er, more elective system, usually means that the 90% of the world can't afford it.

Perhaps both systems could exist concurrently then?

An elective private one, and a public one NOT managed by psychiatrists. 

Quote from: asfsd4214 on October 25, 2009, 06:04:36 PM
It was a poor choice of words on my part, by insane what I meant was "mentally ill"

My use of the word insane was clearly a poor choice, but now you're just looking for something to find fault with. I didn't liken us to anything, you asked what I thought would be a better system, and I gave an example. An EXAMPLE, at no point at all did I so much as imply that we should be considered to be undergoing optional cosmetic surgery, I simply said that a freer, more elective system might be in our interests.

On this I will have to absolutely disagree.  Do i think certain procedures in the treatment process (like FSM for TS women or phalloplasties for TS men) be elective?  Sure -- because there are certain treatments for bipolar disorder and ADHD, as well as sociopathy, schizophrenia, and so forth that are totally optional and elective.  I don't see how an "elective system", one without basic treatment outlines and diagnostic criteria actually benefits individuals who would be suicidal if they couldn't get insurance coverage for transitioning.  And as it stands, a few insurances do cover certain physical transitioning processes (including genital recon) -- it's just not recommended by government agencies due to now-antiquated and ultimately misleading reports of the highly flawed "gender clinic" systems that were shut down in the 1970s (and these clinics were ostensibly shut down to prevent investigations into why they failed so many patients -- if those clinics had been open long enough to be investigated, they would have been shown to be unethical in the treatment of their patients in the first place).

I feel that most people here seem to be having little more than emotional reactions against the idea that fitting DSM criteria makes them somehow "mentally ill" -- as if this was somehow an inherently bad thing.  Is it "bad" for some mental disorders to go untreated?  Of course -- but as i sdaid, my best friend is severely bipolar, and with proper medication (for her -- not all bipolar individuals function best under the same medications), she's a wonderfully charming person to be with, and you'd never guess that she was, as you so eloquently put it "mentally ill".  I have no prejudices against those who fit DSM criteria in other areas, so that's probably the main reason I have no real quibble against GID being in the DSM in the first place -- my only quibble concerning it is that it's so far the only listing in the DSM that is consistently denied its most proved-effective treatment.

Quote from: asfsd4214 on October 25, 2009, 06:13:15 PM
Perhaps both systems could exist concurrently then?

An elective private one, and a public one NOT managed by psychiatrists. 

And who should manage it then?
Who should make sure that the money they are spending on you for the sake of your health is "needed"?

Transsexualism, in my mind, is caused by a brain/body incongruence.
BUT, the reason we Need help correcting that incongruence is Because of the mental anguish it causes us.

Physical problem causes mental anguish, thus treating the physical problem with physical treatments is an appropriate way to alleviate the mental anguish.

Quote from: Miniar on October 25, 2009, 06:07:47 PM
A free-er, more elective system, usually means that the 90% of the world can't afford it.

Agreed.  I find the notion that any government agencies be eradicated to be essentially classist.  I mean, just think of how many dangerous paranoid schizophrenics would be left untreated if the government agencies were to be eradicated from the equation.  I, personally, would not have been able to afford my chest surgery without Medicare (and I was wearing a 38-K bra, as I've said in the FTM sub-forum, so that's pretty much how Medicatre covered it), and I wouldn't be able to afford my lifelong HRT without Medicare, either (and according to Walgreen's, I have the co-pay I have because of how they code it into their system -- i have no idea how they're classifying me, but I'm grateful).

It would be a lot easier, in some ways, and for many people, if this was something that they wouldn't have to search out loopholes to get coverage for.  To say it should all be elective is to say that one is perfectly fine to see hundreds, if not thousands of people go untreated for otherwise treatable conditions -- including transsexualism.

I can't believe that after ten years on the Internet that I'm still getting into these arguments with people using circular logic to explain why the current system sucks and without any of them offering a realistic alternative for everybody.  This whole argument seems to boil down to little more than 1) now-antiquated and largely misunderstood studies that certain agencies are trying to pass off as "proof" of why actual treatment of TS persons somehow "doesn't work"; and 2) a bunch of people offended at the notion of being somehow mentally peculiar, and reacting with the same prejudiced words and marginalising terminology that are constantly used to make people who fit DSM criteria for other reasons (like bipolar or schizotypal disorders) feel like sub-humans.

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Post Merge: October 25, 2009, 05:36:52 PM

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Quote from: Miniar on October 25, 2009, 06:26:12 PMTranssexualism, in my mind, is caused by a brain/body incongruence.
BUT, the reason we Need help correcting that incongruence is Because of the mental anguish it causes us.

Physical problem causes mental anguish, thus treating the physical problem with physical treatments is an appropriate way to alleviate the mental anguish.

This.

And as I said, being on HRT is as much a life-long endeavour as my best friend being on medication for her bipolar disorder.  Bipolar disorder is, in her case as well as most other cases, caused by a neurochemical imbalance (read: physical reason) that medication helps to correct -- yet I'm sure that we can all agree that the mental anguish caused by that neurochemical imbalance is a very real problem and so should probably be enough qualification for DSM criteria.  I really don't see that big of a difference between the two cases.

Quote from: Joandelynn on October 25, 2009, 05:48:36 PM
So if someone is born with a hideously deformed face, and eventually tries to commit suicide because of that, you would call that a mental disorder? After all, the face didn't tell the brain that it was hideously deformed.

I have no idea!  I just know about me,  I'm quite comfortable and thankful the medical profession was there for me and helped to become who I was.  I felt no fear, none of the  stigmatism some attach to the words "Mental Disorder" as those with the "Gate Keeper" mentality.

-={LR}=-

Imagine this...

GID is removed from the DSM.

The "professionals" realize it's just a natural variation and not a mental disorder.

The public accepts this and gender is no longer considered unchangeable.

It becomes widely known that this is a treatable condition and parents should put this on the list of things to be aware of as their kids grow up.

Early recognition means early intervention.  Hormonal treatments started around puberty mean no FFS, no electrolysis, no mastectomy and maybe even no phalloplasty.  Bone structure, voice, body hair all grow in accordance with your identified gender.  And on and on the benefits go.

When you reach adulthood you can live a life as you.  No trying to find a therapist who will treat your depression or your anxiety or write you a hormone or surgery letter.  No worrying about how you're going to get the tens of thousands of dollars to pay for gender related procedures (we're assuming bottom surgery was performed years ago).

If this sounds like a scenario preferable to what things are like today, gender identity dysphoria needs to be seen as a treatable physical condition and not a mental disorder.

As long as there's a book that says it's a mental disorder, it will be treated as such.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 25, 2009, 07:48:50 PM
Imagine this...

GID is removed from the DSM.

The "professionals" realize it's just a natural variation and not a mental disorder.

The public accepts this and gender is no longer considered unchangeable.

It becomes widely known that this is a treatable condition and parents should put this on the list of things to be aware of as their kids grow up.

Early recognition means early intervention.  Hormonal treatments started around puberty mean no FFS, no electrolysis, no mastectomy and maybe even no phalloplasty.  Bone structure, voice, body hair all grow in accordance with your identified gender.  And on and on the benefits go.

When you reach adulthood you can live a life as you.  No trying to find a therapist who will treat your depression or your anxiety or write you a hormone or surgery letter.  No worrying about how you're going to get the tens of thousands of dollars to pay for gender related procedures (we're assuming bottom surgery was performed years ago).

If this sounds like a scenario preferable to what things are like today, gender identity dysphoria needs to be seen as a treatable physical condition and not a mental disorder.

As long as there's a book that says it's a mental disorder, it will be treated as such.

Julie

It seems you have a vivid imagination.

Parents of intersexed children make the gender decision now and don't always get it right.

But it doesn't hurt to hope.

-={LR}=-

My therapist refused to write a diagnosis of GID on my HRT and surgery letters. He said that I did not have a mental disorder. I agreed.

For me, it has nothing to do with insurance issues and everything to do with who and what I am. My depression was a mental disorder for sure. My gender identity is not.

Sometimes I take out my HRT letter and reread it when I feel particularly freakish. The letter gives me a boost. I do not have a mental disorder. I have a screwed-up body. That is all.

Quote from: Ladyrider on October 25, 2009, 08:05:00 PM
It seems you have a vivid imagination.

Parents of intersexed children make the gender decision now and don't always get it right.

But it doesn't hurt to hope.

-={LR}=-

The problem is they tend to do it when the child it's only a few years old and can't express his or her gender identity.

Sometimes they get it right and everything works out, sometimes they don't.

Quote from: Arch on October 25, 2009, 08:06:21 PM
My therapist refused to write a diagnosis of GID on my HRT and surgery letters. He said that I did not have a mental disorder. I agreed.

For me, it has nothing to do with insurance issues and everything to do with who and what I am. My depression was a mental disorder for sure. My gender identity is not.

Sometimes I take out my HRT letter and reread it when I feel particularly freakish. The letter gives me a boost. I do not have a mental disorder. I have a screwed-up body. That is all.

God I wish I had your therapist.

All mine refuse to write me a letter until they've broken me down to the point that I DO have a mental illness.