Obama signs 'hate-crimes' bill into law
'It's a very sad day for America and for religious liberties'

Posted: October 28, 2009
3:57 pm Eastern

By Chelsea Schilling
© 2009 WorldNetDaily

A "hate crimes" bill opponents claim will be used to crack down on Christian speech, even the reading of the Bible, was signed into law today by President Obama.

American Family Association President Tim Wildmon warned that the new law "creates a kind of caste system in law enforcement, where the perverse thing is that people who engage in non-normative sexual behavior will have more legal protection than heterosexuals. This kind of inequality before the law is simply un-American."

Wildmon said the legislation creates possible situations where pastors may be arrested if their sermons on sexuality can be linked in even the remotest way to acts of violence.

"It threatens free speech and freedom of religion and is totally unacceptable," he said.

Full story

So it's a bad thing to know your minister, priest, pastor won't be able to preach hatred in church anymore?

And that whole thing about LGBT getting more protection than straights...  Are they being discriminated against, beaten or murdered for being straight?

Julie

Ah poor babies, so misunderstood.  Ha

I knew that they would begin saying that their freedom to be bigots and preach hate would be threatened.  Just wait till they begin to get sued into the ground.


Janet

Nazis don't like getting squelched either. Oh yeah, I almost forgot the original Nazis were base on perversed Christian beliefs. Funny how committing mass murder didn't figure into all that 

Lets say it all together in retarded right style unison...

we're all gonna die!
we can't push the idea of forcing our narrow minds upon other as much as before, ohh noes



somehow, I see this as having little effect on the haters though, like a criminal couldn't care less about the law broken, the retarded right doesn't care much about the rights of others in spite of their claims to individual liberty.

Quote from: Julie Marie on October 28, 2009, 11:38:11 PM
Obama signs 'hate-crimes' bill into law
'It's a very sad day for America and for religious liberties'

Posted: October 28, 2009
3:57 pm Eastern

By Chelsea Schilling
© 2009 WorldNetDaily

A "hate crimes" bill opponents claim will be used to crack down on Christian speech, even the reading of the Bible, was signed into law today by President Obama.

American Family Association President Tim Wildmon warned that the new law "creates a kind of caste system in law enforcement, where the perverse thing is that people who engage in non-normative sexual behavior will have more legal protection than heterosexuals. This kind of inequality before the law is simply un-American."

Wildmon said the legislation creates possible situations where pastors may be arrested if their sermons on sexuality can be linked in even the remotest way to acts of violence.

"It threatens free speech and freedom of religion and is totally unacceptable," he said.

Full story

So it's a bad thing to know your minister, priest, pastor won't be able to preach hatred in church anymore?

And that whole thing about LGBT getting more protection than straights...  Are they being discriminated against, beaten or murdered for being straight?

Julie

While I think that the church has it almost entirely wrong when it comes to what the Bible says regarding LGBT folks, I also don't think it's helpful to asses that all ministers who preach that it's unbiblical are "preaching hatred"

Certainly some do, but most in my experience preach loving compassion for those who are "outside of God's will" (whether that's LGBT, or adultery, or substance abuse, or whatever) - not hatred.

That's not to say that shallow hearers won't see the "unbiblical" label as a license to hate but that's still not "preaching hatred"

All that said, I sincerely hope that Wildmon is wrong and this legislation is NOT applied to religious teaching (as such laws have led to elsewhere) because I strongly believe in religious freedom and as long as you are not actively violating another you have every right to be sincerely wrong.

I THINK he is wrong - virtually paranoid - because I don't think Americans would stand for the sorts of applications of this line of reasoning that have been applied in other countries against religion...but given that there are precedents it's not entirely unreasonable he's worried about it.

I'm VERY happy about the legislation (albeit, I have philosophical issues with the concept of a "hate crime" - if there is to be hate crime legislation it DEFINITELY needs to be all inclusive)  but i would be unspeakably unhappy with it if it were used to undermine freedom of speech or religion.

Sadly, I've come to have very little confidence in our lawmakers to ultimately get something right, even if they do have a brief moment of lucidity along the way.

I'd like to see a few more "sad days" for these folks w/ passage of fully inclusive ENDA, repeal of DOMA and DADT...   

Z

Wow. Laws get so misunderstood here. First Amendment prevents the gov't from denying an individual or group from speaking out (hence why organizations like the KKK do so well in the US). The Hate Crimes bill only addresses crimes that were done because of <insert identifying reasons here, like colour, religion, etc.>. It doesn't prevent people like Phelps from speaking out.

As an example if someone were to attack Phelps physically because of his religious views, that is a hate crime. If someone were to yell epitaths at me, calling me a "wannabe man", it's not. It's technically freedom of speech. Now, I may decide to sue the individual, claiming slander -- that's a different matter. If, however, because of what they said someone attacked me or they attacked me, then that is a hate crime.

I don't think it does us any justice to be as uneducated as others in this society about changes in laws that happen.

Oh.. and before I forget, please remember the source of the article. WorldDailyNet is the extremist right wing arm of the GOP. It's a fear mongering site that is known for making up stuff and for slanting things in the worst possible light. I don't consider them a reliable news source. 

Quote from: heatherrose on October 29, 2009, 08:30:31 AM

The very same "News Outlet" which came into being with
their shrill trumpeting of the apocalypse of 12:00:01 1/1/00

Well, according to them, this is the apocalypse!  The world is going to hell!  Sodom had risen!  Jesus is on the next flight in with his flaming sword (that sounds kinky).

Actually Jesus landed ten minutes ago and has been detained by the TSA because of a flaming sword found in his luggage.

-Sandy(run for the hills! Rapture is nigh!)

Laura,
In what ways is the church in the right about their position on LBGT?

What examples do you know of clergy being silenced or being arrested? There are none that I know of in the 13 states that have LBGT hate crime protections already.

Maggie

The thing that they just don't realize is that the law did not take their or anyone's freedom of speech or religion.  But if they cause their followers to assault any GLBT person then that is a hate crime and falls under the new law.

Let them speak all they want, just as I can call them Bigots, Hate Mongers and Non-Christians, it is a freedom of speech.


Janet

Quote from: Janet Lynn on October 29, 2009, 09:52:04 AM
The thing that they just don't realize is that the law did not take their or anyone's freedom of speech or religion.  But if they cause their followers to assault any GLBT person then that is a hate crime and falls under the new law.

Let them speak all they want, just as I can call them Bigots, Hate Mongers and Non-Christians, it is a freedom of speech.


Janet

True, it would be a hate crime but the perpetrator of the violence would be the one who is given the penalty, not the preacher.  I suppose that if the preacher was acting like a godfather in the mafia and ordered a hit, he could be involved but I don't think that even is under this legislation. 


I wish there was a way to stop religious leaders from fomenting hatred like they so often do but that will not happen in this nation.  There are plenty of hate groups like the KKK who can still speak out and none are jailed.

Maggie

Possibly, I can envision members of the clergy putting out a disclaimer in their Sunday sermons; "members of the flock, upon completion of today's message do not take literally what I say as license to justify violence and/or bodily harm  upon the intended". But then, that would take away their thunder wouldn't it? I mean, if they have to, on the one hand say something that nullifies their chosen diatribe of the week, then whats the point in saying it? On the other hand, if members of the clergy did put out some disclaimer, that might give pause to some of the sheep to stop and think for themselves for a moment, that the message they are about to receive might not be in their best interest.

Either way, it works out better for us. It's time for haters to be cautious about the words they choose to inflame and the actions arisen from them.


Dawn

Quote from: Dawn D.It's time for haters to be cautious about the words they choose to inflame and the actions arisen from them.

Watch your thoughts, for they become words.
Watch your words, for they become actions.
Watch your actions, for they become habits.
Watch your habits, for they become character.
Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.

---Just some good advice from the Quran

Quote from: Linus on October 29, 2009, 07:36:41 AM
Wow. Laws get so misunderstood here. First Amendment prevents the gov't from denying an individual or group from speaking out (hence why organizations like the KKK do so well in the US). The Hate Crimes bill only addresses crimes that were done because of <insert identifying reasons here, like colour, religion, etc.>. It doesn't prevent people like Phelps from speaking out.

I understand the First Amendment perfectly well.

I know that the PROPER application of it protects morons like Phelps along with sane people.

I also understand perfectly well that our constitutional rights are not ALWAYS properly applied by the courts which is where the worry comes from.

For instance, McCain-Feingold is EASILY a violation of freedom of speech but the SCOTUS upheld it.

Quote
I don't think it does us any justice to be as uneducated as others in this society about changes in laws that happen.

Oh.. and before I forget, please remember the source of the article. WorldDailyNet is the extremist right wing arm of the GOP.

It IS extremely right wing, but as a former regular reader, I can tell you they were chewing on Bush's a$$ as much as anyone when he was in office. they are NOT "a wing of the GOP - they are well to the right of the power-people in the GOP.

Quote
It's a fear mongering site that is known for making up stuff and for slanting things in the worst possible light. I don't consider them a reliable news source.

On that we agree.

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Post Merge: October 29, 2009, 12:27:47 PM

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Quote from: Maggie Kay on October 29, 2009, 08:51:56 AM
Laura,
In what ways is the church in the right about their position on LBGT?

where did you get the idea I thought they were right? Nothing in my remarks remotely implied that.

I said they had the right to be wrong.

Quote
What examples do you know of clergy being silenced or being arrested? There are none that I know of in the 13 states that have LBGT hate crime protections already.

Maggie

If there have been cases they have escaped my notice. I'm inclined to think the "threat" is overstated because we have stronger constitutional protections for our liberties than any other nation.

I merely noted that people like Wildmon need only look across our northern border to see misapplication of this sort of mindset - to say nothing of various European countries.

The fact that other nations HAVE botched the good intentions behind such laws is enough to make the Christian Right paranoid on the subject.

To be crystal clear - I DON'T think it will happen here, but I also don't think it's moonbat craziness for them to be worried about it.

Quote from: Sandy on October 29, 2009, 08:35:53 AM
Actually Jesus landed ten minutes ago and has been detained by the TSA because of a flaming sword found in his luggage.

Gee, I heard that he wasn't allowed to board because he had too many liquid hair-care products in his carry-on luggage.

Quote from: Dawn D. on October 29, 2009, 11:20:24 AM
Possibly, I can envision members of the clergy putting out a disclaimer in their Sunday sermons; "members of the flock, upon completion of today's message do not take literally what I say as license to justify violence and/or bodily harm  upon the intended". But then, that would take away their thunder wouldn't it? I mean, if they have to, on the one hand say something that nullifies their chosen diatribe of the week, then whats the point in saying it?

That would be all well and good IF your average minister was preaching "Let's all go out and find a ->-bleeped-<-got and bash his skull in!!!"

The problem is, even the true nutters like Phelps and that dude in Arizona ain't saying that.

But for 99.9% of all christian ministers, they don't say ANYTHING which could REMOTELY be twisted by a SANE person as "go attack a gay and god will love you more"

Heck, you get more incitement to violence from popular music than you get from the pulpit by 100,000 times more.

And I say this as a person who's listend to thousands of Southern Baptist sermons and preached a few.

I can't recall ever hearing ONE in which, if the church bulletin had said:

"Be advised that neither the church nor the minister encourages, approves, or endorses any sort of violent or hateful behavior towards any person based on the information received today"

...that it would have contridicted a single syllable of the sermon being delivered.

In fact, I think it's a capital idea for churches to start including that disclaimer just to show a good faith ghesture.

Quote
On the other hand, if members of the clergy did put out some disclaimer, that might give pause to some of the sheep to stop and think for themselves for a moment, that the message they are about to receive might not be in their best interest.

Either way, it works out better for us. It's time for haters to be cautious about the words they choose to inflame and the actions arisen from them.

Dawn

It's so very sad that we fall prey to the same sort of generalized distaste for them that they do for us.

I've said before on here (and no one listens) and will say again - if we are going to get on our sopabox and point the self-righteous finger at religious people and label the "Haters!!" then we are doing EXACTLY the same thing to them that we decry when they do it to us.

I will never understand why we can't be bigger than that.

Laura,
"While I think that the church has it almost entirely wrong when it comes to what the Bible says regarding LGBT folks, I also don't think it's helpful to asses that all ministers who preach that it's unbiblical are "preaching hatred"

I asked because you said "Almost" so I wondered where you think they are right about LBGT folks.

As for the Canadian case and the case in Sweden, they were overblown and misrepresented by the RR to make them appear egregious.  Just like many of their tactics now, they use all sorts of underhanded means to get their ends.  It is downright shameful in the ways they distort or even lie about these things to make their case. 

Maggie

Quote from: Sandy on October 29, 2009, 08:35:53 AM
Well, according to them, this is the apocalypse!  The world is going to hell!  Sodom had risen!  Jesus is on the next flight in with his flaming sword (that sounds kinky).

Actually Jesus landed ten minutes ago and has been detained by the TSA because of a flaming sword found in his luggage.

-Sandy(run for the hills! Rapture is nigh!)

Dr. Peter Venkman: This city is headed for a disaster of biblical proportions.
Mayor: What do you mean, "biblical"?
Dr Ray Stantz: What he means is Old Testament, Mr. Mayor, real wrath of God type stuff.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Exactly.
Dr Ray Stantz: Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling!
Dr. Egon Spengler: Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes...
Winston Zeddemore: The dead rising from the grave!
Dr. Peter Venkman: Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!