What makes a woman a woman?  On the inside.

How we feel about ourselves I suppose?

Quote from: Adrianna on November 05, 2009, 10:50:43 PM
How we feel about ourselves I suppose?

Can someone choose how to feel. I feel that I can choose, so I don't know that I am more one than another. Maybe one way is easier to feel...

I guess its how a woman sees the same situation in a different way to a male.  A woman will in general have more compassion and feeling than what a male will. A woman's feeling and emotions run deeper and last longer. I better stop here I feel my philosophical side taking charge will have me typing some long disertation boring everyone to death but curing insomnia for those that suffer from insomnia.

Cure me Kimber,

You just are...

For example, say you're hungry, how do you know you're hungry? Because you feel hungry? But what IS the feeling of hunger? It's indescribable, and you can't explain in literal verbal terms what it IS, it just is.

That's what your gender is, it just is. 

Quote from: Robin. on November 06, 2009, 12:30:39 AM
Can someone choose how to feel.

I think we trick ourselves into thinking we can choose how we feel, whereas the truth is we cannot.  We feel how we feel regardless of what we want, what we choose however is how to act (or not to act) upon those feelings.

There are many studies that suggest that there are no real differences between the sexes aside from physical differences. If we were all raised the same, treated the same, we really don't have as many differences as we would think. These experiments have been done before. I'll clarify and say that it was based on socialization as a whole.

Gender is a product of society and of ourselves in a struggle to identify with who we are as a people.

We currently don't live in a world where gender doesn't matter. Everything we come in contact with tells us how we should be in a gender role. Men do this, women do that, men should be treated this way and women should be treated that way. I don't see us escaping that any time soon.

So how does a TG, more specifically, a TS feel like their cause to change sexes is valid? Because for one thing, society as a whole will always treat us a certain way because of our exteriors. For another thing, it's not all in the mind, I think that most of us feel like our brains don't match up to the plumbing so-to-speak. When something doesn't match well, then you're obviously not going to have a great time mentally.

So what makes a woman a woman? What makes a man a man? It seems to vary from culture to culture. In the end, I know too many different types of women and men. I think it just depends on you.

That's my take on it at least.

I struggled with this for a while. I've always been a more feminine male and I believe there's really nothign wrong with being a more feminine male...but there's something much deeper in me that I concluded at some point after a long time of trying to figure it out.....that I am female.

So what makes a woman a woman inside? I think it ends up being something you just know, even if it takes some time to figure out (28 years for me).

Quote from: Kimber on November 06, 2009, 01:21:07 AM
I guess its how a woman sees the same situation in a different way to a male.  A woman will in general have more compassion and feeling than what a male will. A woman's feeling and emotions run deeper and last longer. I better stop here I feel my philosophical side taking charge will have me typing some long disertation boring everyone to death but curing insomnia for those that suffer from insomnia.

The thing is, when I think about it, it seems possible that all men could have had the same amount of emotion and feeling as women, but we ourselves and by the social environment have our emotions oppressed. We learn that we must hide them and eventualy we begin or do lose them.

For me I have always hid my true emotions but I've known they were there. In my free time, when I'm alone, I always daydream about being a woman not simply being one but living the life of one, I guess because that is how I feel best when expressing my emotions and feelings. But not just that, I feel that as a woman I could/can move my body in the ways I feel most comfortable, sit as I feel comfortable... but then I think what if the society flip floped and all men were in the positions of women and women took the place of the male roles. i think that in such a society i could live, If all other men were like me, as effeminate as I am, then I would probably feel comfortable with my body. And I would even feel comfortable sexualy because I would love a strong male-like woman. But because the society is the way it is the only way I can imagine feeling comfortable truely being myself is to be in a womans body. Because then I would not have to fear what people think of me?

Of course, If(more likely when) I transition people may be able to tell that I am transgender (I would really love that not to be the case). However, there is more to it I guess. I wan't love too and since what I am most attracted to is a strong male-like woman most of the woman I get a crush on or am attracted to are lesbians, and as a man that limits me to the rare Bi-sexual woman who feels comfortable being manly or more of the male in the relationship. And at the same time I have never imagened myself, succesfully, as a man with a woman. I always end up fantasizing or daydreaming as a woman.

Perhaps this is just what I have gotten used to, and thus I find it hard to even consider feeling comfortable being as effeminate, as a man, with a woman... It just kinda seems ugly to me, it doesn't really turn me on. Even when I look at porn its almost always lesbian porn... So i guess I'm kinda questioning if I just want the body of a woman. I mean I definitly am effeminate in many ways, and even have many female oriented interests, but I still have some male interests...I like guns . Speaking of which, I also sometimes fantasize as being a woman with a male, but to me I don't know that I could love a true male, atleast not one that was emmotionaly bottled like most men...I could have sex with one though(not as a man though). And I have considered just being an effeminate man and letting every one else shove there opinions up there rectum. but then I would most likely be stuck partnering with men because I'm not one to ask the other out or whatever, I just can't do that, i can flirt back but I'm no good at starting things. And thus most women would think I was gay and not even attempt a relationship with me, and like i said most of the more tough women are lesbians anyways. I guess ultimatley i wounder if I want to transition because It's easier, but then just thinking I am a woman while I do things makes everything seem so much more enjoyable...

Quote from: Tristan H. on November 06, 2009, 06:07:59 AM
There are many studies that suggest that there are no real differences between the sexes aside from physical differences. If we were all raised the same, treated the same, we really don't have as many differences as we would think. These experiments have been done before.

And they are WAY out of date!

The most recent studies using MRI and other imaging techniques clearly show a pronounced difference between the way a male brain processes information from a female brain - not that one is better than the other, just DIFFERENT. Also behavioral and development specialists show decided differences in the way girls and boys develop completely ASIDE from social "conditioning".

Of course the old feminists and the 'politically correct' crowd try to bury this information.

Come to think of it, I do Remember from my psycology class that it was discussed how a mans brain has more seperation between the left and right brains. Wheras a women's brain is more interconected somewhat due to high amounts of estrogen that can facilitate this. This leads to women being more capable of switching from one type of thinking to another facilitating things like multitasking. Wheras the mans brain is more capable of focusing on one side of the brain. 

....I have been diagnosed with ADD in the past but I have never realy had too much trouble focusing on anything unless I was feeling anxious or emmotional at the time. Maybe its something more, ADD is one of the most missdiagnosed things, at least thats what I hear. And I definitly am good at multitasking, in fact when I'm doing my best work, writing poetry working on a short story or whatever, I am generaly doing many things at once: Like last night I was Righting an idea for a short story (somewhat of an outline), searching for good music online, working on my Speech for my Rhetoric class (and doing research online for that too). pretty much all at once. I mean I couldn't right both the speech and the story at the same time but i found myself going from one to the other and then to the music back to the speech back to music, and so on. This sort of switching between task type is what is facilitated by a woman's brain...(possibly evolved from prehistoric gathering needs...IDK)

(I also find myself doing things like brushing my teeth while I'm turning on the shower with my toes ( made me fill kinda like a monkey), but thats more of a doing multiple things at once than being capable of switching to alternate logic tasks.)

it's complicated. it's just one of those mysteries of life. gender is like a continuom. you are who you are, and that's just it.

Quote from: Tristan H. on November 06, 2009, 06:07:59 AM
There are many studies that suggest that there are no real differences between the sexes aside from physical differences. If we were all raised the same, treated the same, we really don't have as many differences as we would think. These experiments have been done before. I'll clarify and say that it was based on socialization as a whole.

Gender is a product of society and of ourselves in a struggle to identify with who we are as a people.

We currently don't live in a world where gender doesn't matter. Everything we come in contact with tells us how we should be in a gender role. Men do this, women do that, men should be treated this way and women should be treated that way. I don't see us escaping that any time soon.

So how does a TG, more specifically, a TS feel like their cause to change sexes is valid? Because for one thing, society as a whole will always treat us a certain way because of our exteriors. For another thing, it's not all in the mind, I think that most of us feel like our brains don't match up to the plumbing so-to-speak. When something doesn't match well, then you're obviously not going to have a great time mentally.

So what makes a woman a woman? What makes a man a man? It seems to vary from culture to culture. In the end, I know too many different types of women and men. I think it just depends on you.

That's my take on it at least.

Actually i saw on science channel, that study shows Woman's brain & Gay man brain are very similar > Most of the time they think in there "Inside" world, thats why they are much more Emotional, sensitive, and can cry faster then a man...they connect everything more or less "inside"
Where Man and Gay Butch lesbians are more similar, they said that they feel much more "Outside" world, Action, fast cars, sports, they can scream, and cry less.
Anyway, it was on science channel.

Quote from: kimwilde12 on November 06, 2009, 03:27:08 PM
Actually i saw on science channel, that study shows Woman's brain & Gay man brain are very similar > Most of the time they think in there "Inside" world, thats why they are much more Emotional, sensitive, and can cry faster then a man...they connect everything more or less "inside"
Where Man and Gay Butch lesbians are more similar, they said that they feel much more "Outside" world, Action, fast cars, sports, they can scream, and cry less.
Anyway, it was on science channel.

Thanx, thats interesting. I'm definitly an "inside" thinker. But one still may be able to choose to be one type thinker or another If they make choices that promote such thinking, or if their environment/habitat influenced them to be that way. In fact brain chemistry itself is likely alterable by means of thinking certain ways (meditation) and environment. Like the Pavlov's Dog thing...

HA, No differences between a male and female mind.  Poppycock.  lordy if that was case then I would never had been teased in gym that I ran like a girl, or threw like a girl, when I was just running and throwing the best I could.  To me anyway, I have been painfully reminded while I was growing up that I was not normal, Not a guy....Which oddly enough I knew then.  Lovely time that was....Not. 

Beni

Quote from: kimwilde12 on November 06, 2009, 03:27:08 PM
Actually i saw on science channel, that study shows Woman's brain & Gay man brain are very similar > Most of the time they think in there "Inside" world, thats why they are much more Emotional, sensitive, and can cry faster then a man...they connect everything more or less "inside"
Where Man and Gay Butch lesbians are more similar, they said that they feel much more "Outside" world, Action, fast cars, sports, they can scream, and cry less.
Anyway, it was on science channel.

Which are all things influenced by society's gender and sexuality roles.

I know plenty of gay men who don't think any different from a straight man and plenty of gay women who think like a straight woman. All you have to do is switch the sexuality.

Quote from: Northern Jane on November 06, 2009, 02:31:39 PM
And they are WAY out of date!

The most recent studies using MRI and other imaging techniques clearly show a pronounced difference between the way a male brain processes information from a female brain - not that one is better than the other, just DIFFERENT. Also behavioral and development specialists show decided differences in the way girls and boys develop completely ASIDE from social "conditioning".

Of course the old feminists and the 'politically correct' crowd try to bury this information.

It's not out of date if there were a couple of live experiments where they raised people of both sexes with no gender influences and found only physical differences.

Remember, gender is something social, hormones and thinking processes are a product of something physical.

I find that when it comes to the "Nature vs Nurture" debate they're creating a false dichotomy.  It's not one or that other, it's clearly both.  This implies ergo, that there are certain things that are inherently female and certain things that have been decided are female.  Which these are requires further reasoning which can only be done properly as part of a dialogue.  You have the floor madames and.... probably just madames.

Quote from: Jester on November 06, 2009, 09:34:25 PM
I find that when it comes to the "Nature vs Nurture" debate they're creating a false dichotomy.  It's not one or that other, it's clearly both.  This implies ergo, that there are certain things that are inherently female and certain things that have been decided are female.  Which these are requires further reasoning which can only be done properly as part of a dialogue.  You have the floor madames and.... probably just madames.

I would definitly agree that it is both, but perhaps to say both is inappropriate. I tend to think that "Nature and Nurture" are one and the same. For example our genetics(nature) was a product of evolution to our environment(nurture). But then we humans especially augment our environment as well. it's "Chicken or Egg"ish to me.

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Post Merge: November 06, 2009, 09:21:46 PM

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Quote from: Beni on November 06, 2009, 09:10:06 PM
HA, No differences between a male and female mind.  Poppycock.  lordy if that was case then I would never had been teased in gym that I ran like a girl, or threw like a girl, when I was just running and throwing the best I could.  To me anyway, I have been painfully reminded while I was growing up that I was not normal, Not a guy....Which oddly enough I knew then.  Lovely time that was....Not. 

Beni

I know what you mean, I was even teased by some of my best friends about the way I walked. Even had one ask why I sit "awkwardly" all the time... Perhaps worst of all, I remember my stepdad yelling at me and making me practice walking normaly...Thank god that ->-bleeped-<- is out of my life. If it wasn't for him I probably would have transitioned long before... I hate him and I don't hate people  (I hope he is born a woman in his next life)...kinda... I don't think I could really wish that upon anyone though, to have to transgenderize that is.

Quote from: Jester on November 06, 2009, 09:34:25 PM
I find that when it comes to the "Nature vs Nurture" debate they're creating a false dichotomy.

I think that the questions 'what is a woman' and 'what is a man' is creating a false dichotomy too. If gender is a spectrum then not everyone can answer that question. I was born female but I don't feel like I'm a woman... or a man. So why can't we just say - be who you are - and leave it at that? If we have to use the terms 'woman' and 'man' then maybe we can say "I am 20% woman, 30% man and the rest is 'other'" or whatever. But it's the dominant groups in society that decide what the current definitions of the terms 'woman' and 'man' are - doesn't mean we have to make ourselves fit into it.

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Post Merge: November 08, 2009, 01:38:02 AM

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Quote from: Robin. on November 06, 2009, 01:37:45 PM
The thing is, when I think about it, it seems possible that all men could have had the same amount of emotion and feeling as women, but we ourselves and by the social environment have our emotions oppressed. We learn that we must hide them and eventualy we begin or do lose them.

I think you're right.

Quote from: Robin. on November 06, 2009, 01:37:45 PM
... but then I think what if the society flip floped and all men were in the positions of women and women took the place of the male roles. i think that in such a society i could live, If all other men were like me, as effeminate as I am, then I would probably feel comfortable with my body. And I would even feel comfortable sexualy because I would love a strong male-like woman. But because the society is the way it is the only way I can imagine feeling comfortable truely being myself is to be in a womans body. Because then I would not have to fear what people think of me?

I think you're right again! If that's the case then you are transgendered beacuse you go beyond our current society's views of gender, but you're not transexual because you're fine with your body being what it is (unless you're not). Just because you are a feminine male it doesn't mean you have to try to be a woman (whatever that is!). Sounds to me like you're just genderqueer.

Quote from: Robin. on November 06, 2009, 01:37:45 PM
I wan't love too and since what I am most attracted to is a strong male-like woman most of the woman I get a crush on or am attracted to are lesbians, and as a man that limits me to the rare Bi-sexual woman who feels comfortable being manly or more of the male in the relationship. And at the same time I have never imagened myself, succesfully, as a man with a woman. ..... And thus most women would think I was gay and not even attempt a relationship with me, and like i said most of the more tough women are lesbians anyways. I guess ultimatley i wounder if I want to transition because It's easier, but then just thinking I am a woman while I do things makes everything seem so much more enjoyable...

Guess what? There are strong females who like to take the more aggressive role in a relationship with a male - I'm one of them! Just because you are male, doesn't mean you are a man - and just because your partner is female, doesn't mean ze is a woman. Yes, it's a rare coupling but it exists. I'm female, and mostly I look like a slightly androgynous lesbian, but just because I look that way doesn't mean that's what I am. My gender is androgyne and my sexuality is pansexual - I don't care if a person has a penis or vagina or both! Sexually I'm the 'top', I wear the strap on and I like partners who are submissive - including males. For a long time I thought I was crazy, but turns out I'm not the only one. My point is: no matter how 'weird' your sexual orientation seems, there will be somone out there who compliments you. So be yourself and don't feel like you have to be 'this or that' to fit in. You're fine just the way you are! In fact I think you sound fabulous