That second one isnt stealth...


Lets be literal shall we?

Stealth, as a concept, is living as your true gender, without those around you knowing about your birth sex. All records match, and it isn't possible to identify you as transsexual.

Very few are this.

I am not this...

I live as a female, very very few know, and its not even actively remembered now. My records for the most part (those I can change now) are female. I'm preop, but well... i don't tend to walk around naked.

Thats not stealth. That's fairly crafty if we must label it... Infact one could put a tail on it and call it a fox.... But it's not stealth.  The line is blurry.... but the concept we seem to all discuss here, is 'living as your true gender, without being identifiable as trans to average joe and jane. (Background checks, other id issues and knickers content aside.)

I've read more stealth posts than I care to remember and written more than I care to admit.  And what I've seen is this is one subject we have to agree to disagree.  Whatever stealth is to you is the correct definition.  No one has to agree with you.  No one has to live by your definition.

But I wonder if it's not really the definition that causes discussion of this subject to sometimes go nuclear.  I'm wondering if it's the realities of being seen as a trans person that causes many of us to get so emotional.

Let's face it, if you walk into a room and announce you are a "transsexual" everything changes in an instant.  No one will treat you the way they would if they didn't have that knowledge.  General "knowledge" about this issue is poor at best.  And many still believe it is a choice.  So, by putting your gender identity out there before anyone gets to know you is self destructive, unless that's why you're there (panel discussion, meetings, etc.)

The fact that you won't get a fair shake forces us to keep our history on a need to know basis.  And the more one feels being outed will hurt you, the more effort will be put into protecting that information from getting out.  So it's just common sense to keep your medical history private.

So when someone says, "I'm totally stealth" are they saying, "I've achieved something I've worked very hard to achieve and I'm proud to say so"?  Or are they saying, "I'm blessed and you're not"?

And I think that is where the animosity comes in.  So we debate endlessly the definition of stealth.  Possibly as a means to counter what we consider a personal attack?  I don't know.  But what I do know is society is basically ignorant about gender identity issues and trans lives and that makes our life so much harder than the lives of the general population.

Of course the occasional childish comment such as, "You're not stealth because you can't be" doesn't help matters at all.  So maybe those who feel the need to say such things should keep their comments to themselves if the ultimate goal is to make this world a better place for anyone who is trans, stealth or not.  Because even if you are stealth, there's always the chance you will be outed so even the stealth benefit from educating society about trans people.

Maybe once this world isn't so hostile towards us, the stealth debate will end.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 11, 2009, 01:18:47 PM
Maybe once this world isn't so hostile towards us, the stealth debate will end.

Julie

Amen, sister.

- Kate

Quote from: Bellaon7 on November 04, 2009, 10:05:05 PM
Is this what the cool ts people are doing, or is just rouge group?

We could also quit taking ourselves so seriously, this thread started out being a gentle, lighthearted laugh at ourselves.

Quote from: Becca on November 11, 2009, 02:15:07 PM
We could also quit taking ourselves so seriously, this thread started out being a gentle, lighthearted laugh at ourselves.

Becca nailed it(of course). I never wanted to start a s-storm & sit back & watch us turn on each other for s&giggles. I don't "get it" & don't need to. But maybe this is something we just have to air out. If this subject stirs up this much passsion, maybe it's better to just hash it out in the open. Many of us don't feel like we can talk about certain things anywhere, or to any one.

Quote from: Becca on November 11, 2009, 02:15:07 PM
We could also quit taking ourselves so seriously, this thread started out being a gentle, lighthearted laugh at ourselves.

I don't think a contentious issue is worth laughing at....

And I certainly don't think the life choice of some is worth laughing at either.

However we look at this, it's an important issue. If a topic was made 'jokingly' taking the mick out of being out, there would be uproar.

Julie: even if the world wasnt hostile to trans, I myself would still not be out about it. I want to live my life as the woman I was born, not some second class citizen. Nomatter what we do. for decades to come trans will be accepted. And acceptance is..... an oxymoron.

That's a very good point, and I hadn't looked at it that way. I'm sorry.

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 11, 2009, 10:32:48 PM
Julie: even if the world wasnt hostile to trans, I myself would still not be out about it. I want to live my life as the woman I was born, not some second class citizen. Nomatter what we do. for decades to come trans will be accepted. And acceptance is..... an oxymoron.

I wasn't saying if the world wasn't hostile anyone would want to be out, only that the issue of stealth might lose it's importance. 

Your other comment about not wanting to be a second class citizen is just what I was referring to as one reason why stealth is so important to many of us.

In that imaginary world where being trans is about as abnormal as having red hair, many, if not all, of us wouldn't feel the need to be stealth.  And if being trans was the same as being beautiful in the eyes of society I'd think we'd bask in our good fortune.

Read about the Berdache and two spirit and imagine that being the case today.  Why would any of us want to be "just" a man or "just" a woman when we could be highly revered and respected simply because we are trans?  I'll take that world over being stealth any day.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 11, 2009, 11:11:05 PM
I wasn't saying if the world wasn't hostile anyone would want to be out, only that the issue of stealth might lose it's importance. 

Your other comment about not wanting to be a second class citizen is just what I was referring to as one reason why stealth is so important to many of us.

In that imaginary world where being trans is about as abnormal as having red hair, many, if not all, of us wouldn't feel the need to be stealth.  And if being trans was the same as being beautiful in the eyes of society I'd think we'd bask in our good fortune.

Read about the Berdache and two spirit and imagine that being the case today.  Why would any of us want to be "just" a man or "just" a woman when we could be highly revered and respected simply because we are trans?  I'll take that world over being stealth any day.

Julie

I for one would rather be treated like anyone else rather than revered.

I do agree with you though, if trans were accepted as simply another state of being whichever gender you are. Then I don't think there would be much need for stealth. I wouldn't go around advertising it, but I wouldn't be reluctant to disclose it either.

But, that's not going to happen any time soon.

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 11, 2009, 11:11:05 PM
I wasn't saying if the world wasn't hostile anyone would want to be out, only that the issue of stealth might lose it's importance. 

Your other comment about not wanting to be a second class citizen is just what I was referring to as one reason why stealth is so important to many of us.

In that imaginary world where being trans is about as abnormal as having red hair, many, if not all, of us wouldn't feel the need to be stealth.  And if being trans was the same as being beautiful in the eyes of society I'd think we'd bask in our good fortune.

Read about the Berdache and two spirit and imagine that being the case today.  Why would any of us want to be "just" a man or "just" a woman when we could be highly revered and respected simply because we are trans?  I'll take that world over being stealth any day.

Julie

I disagree... i think it would take more than that to make it a non issue....
The point is, trans isnt, and never will be 'like having red hair'. As long as its called trans, its different, and eternally will be trans. Hey, trans might become a m/f/t thing... or it may just be a second category of male and female 'transman and transwoman' hey 4 sexes! Frankly, untill its 'man' and 'woman' it will be an issue....

As for being reveared.... I'd rather live a normal life, and be respected, loved, apreciated and liked for things I do... not how im born. Even if being  trans got me a million pounds, I suspect I'd still rather just live a normal boring life.
I live a happy life, i have friends that apreciate me for who I am... my personality, my actions, my interests. I have a man I love very much, and that loves me in return, I work hard at university, I'll suceed once I graduate, I play sports, music, I write, I'm me. I wouldn't want to be anyone else, seen for anything else in the world.... How the world sees me is just right... no bulls**t, no false ephilettes.... Just a girl making her way through life. Being considered 'special' for being trans to me, would be as bad as being considered 'weird'.... its all 'different' at the end of the day.... them and us syndrome.
Perhaps one day others too will find tranquility in life itself, without the need to grasp at titles to make themselves feel like they mean something. Write your own story... Don't just copy paste chapters from the books of others.

Totally agree TNB.

Assuming some future utopian society is completely o.k. with us....positive things such acceptance, tolerance, being special, looked up to, thought of as courageous, respected or admired for being Trans is a nightmare scenario for me (over the long term of my life). I'd rather that there be no need for those things in the first place, because noone ever thinks to question such things, because I've stopped questioning these things as well, I'm just me.

Out vs. stealth? It's the difference between talking about something and doing it IMO. But then again I think stealth is another kind of transition, what lies beyond stealth is what I'm after. After getting cut, it's nice when the skin scabs because we know it's starting to heal, but it's better to lose the scab. I'm not going to put it in a picture frame, or announce it over loudspeakers. Those who are out and can do the social/political/legal etc...work that we need do a great service to us though so I'm glad for those that can do those things.

to each their own nice grenade bella
jessica

I think I see your viewpoint, NB.  That is what you want and need.  I wish you every success.  I don't think that is what I want, or if I do ultimately want it I won't find out until it is close to achievable for me.  (It isn't achievable for me now and may never be.  Since I don't allow myself to dwell on the unattainable, I am happy without it.)

I would take a small issue with this, though:

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 11, 2009, 10:32:48 PM
I don't think a contentious issue is worth laughing at....

And I certainly don't think the life choice of some is worth laughing at either.

I certainly won't laugh at your life choice.  But I certainly laugh at my own.

If I couldn't laugh at the ridiculousness of some of the situations that transition has forced me into, I don't know that I would make it.  I'm having a lot of fun with transition and enjoying it most of the time.  It is the most complicated, difficult, and fun thing I've ever done. 

Perhaps it was because I was born in a different time or perhaps it is my nature, but it does seem very odd to me that I should be a woman who suffered through much of her life in a male body.   The very idea is a bit ridiculous (or Kafkaesque – your choice).

But each of us has a different take on this, and I find the discussions very valuable to learn how others see these things.  We just need the freedom to live in a way that suits our natures.

- Kate

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 11, 2009, 11:11:05 PM
I wasn't saying if the world wasn't hostile anyone would want to be out, only that the issue of stealth might lose it's importance. 

Your other comment about not wanting to be a second class citizen is just what I was referring to as one reason why stealth is so important to many of us.

In that imaginary world where being trans is about as abnormal as having red hair, many, if not all, of us wouldn't feel the need to be stealth.  And if being trans was the same as being beautiful in the eyes of society I'd think we'd bask in our good fortune.

Read about the Berdache and two spirit and imagine that being the case today.  Why would any of us want to be "just" a man or "just" a woman when we could be highly revered and respected simply because we are trans?  I'll take that world over being stealth any day.

Julie

I certainly agree Julie.

I find it very amusing that folks get their draws in a knot over such a thing.  Lets face it my definition of stealth is going to be different from others, as would be my definition of full time, SRS, RLT, TS, TG, and lord knows that's just in this community, I haven't touched on things outside of this site.  There are far more important things in life to be concerned with.

The important issue is that I'm happy with me and my life.  I live as stealthy as I can BUT, my family knows about me, as does my employer, as do my co-workers, as do all the medical professionals who need to deal with me.  My fiance?  Well of course he knows.  I'm on "File" with someone somewhere - That deserted Island sure looks tempting

-={LR}=-

I think, honestly, with so many definitions, whats the point in having terms like stealth, rle, full time, srs, ffs, 'out' etc.... there's no point, lets just call transition 'GARMANGOOKIEWOO' Which means in swahilli 'banana'. I feel it is a more accurate term for a collective of apparently liquid definitions. *facepalm*

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 12, 2009, 07:04:29 PM
I think, honestly, with so many definitions, whats the point in having terms like stealth, rle, full time, srs, ffs, 'out' etc.... there's no point, lets just call transition 'GARMANGOOKIEWOO' Which means in swahilli 'banana'. I feel it is a more accurate term for a collective of apparently liquid definitions. *facepalm*

I have a better idea. Why don't we just let people live their lives and use whatever term they see fit and not worry about it? That seems like the better option to me.

One half of the internet: 'THESE ARE THE DEFINTIIONS WE NEED DEFINITIONS!

Another half of the itnernet: ' Definitions are wrong! lets all live our lives and let people belive what the hell they want to belive by calling it something else to make them feel better!'

Another half of the internet (Yes, it's this irational): Badger.



I'm afraid only one of those can win... i'm going for door number 3

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 12, 2009, 07:42:00 PM
One half of the internet: 'THESE ARE THE DEFINTIIONS WE NEED DEFINITIONS!

Another half of the itnernet: ' Definitions are wrong! lets all live our lives and let people belive what the hell they want to belive by calling it something else to make them feel better!'

Another half of the internet (Yes, it's this irational): Badger.



I'm afraid only one of those can win... i'm going for door number 3

There's three 1/2's now? 

Its the online trans community... there is no such thing as sense.

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 12, 2009, 08:27:40 PM
Its the online trans community... there is no such thing as sense.

I could not agree more, but I cannot rest untill I know more about these three 1/2's! Could you please expand on this idea of the three 1/2's?