OMG Laura go to the bar with her!

SHHHH! s e c r e t Stealth!

Look, Knock it the hell off with mocking stealth. It's a choice that we make. and our right, just as much as yours to be out. So please refrain from taking the piss. It's not funny.

There would be outrage if 'stealth' defined people began to mock out people.... 'lol look at those silly people parading around being weirdos, they must love the attention...' See where im going with this?

Can't we all respect eachother's choice? It's a way of life. And our choice, and our choice alone. NOBODY has the right to tell anyone how to live, or mock the way they live.

I WRONGLY assumed that in a trans forum, that people would have copped the hell on and realised the hypocracy behind thier words.

I think that about most of the transitioners I know as friends or clients had no idea if stealth would be possible when they first started. Most desired to be stealth, but it can be a very distant goal.

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 15, 2009, 06:48:11 AMLook, Knock it the hell off with mocking stealth. It's a choice that we make. and our right, just as much as yours to be out. So please refrain from taking the piss. It's not funny.

Stealth is a word that has different meanings to different people.  Before jumping to conclusions about someone mocking, ask what they mean.

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 15, 2009, 06:48:11 AMThere would be outrage if 'stealth' defined people began to mock out people.... 'lol look at those silly people parading around being weirdos, they must love the attention...' See where im going with this?

No one is saying, "Look at those silly stealth people, thinking they are fooling the world."  No one is mocking anyone who chooses stealth.

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 15, 2009, 06:48:11 AMCan't we all respect eachother's choice? It's a way of life. And our choice, and our choice alone. NOBODY has the right to tell anyone how to live, or mock the way they live.

This subject has been beaten to death and it's clear there is no one definition, no one meaning.  While for you it may be deadly serious, for others it's practically meaningless.  That's how the world works.  We can all get along only if we all are accepting of each others differences.

Julie

If it means so little, why do you all still post about it?

And the number of times stealth is refered to as 'in the closet/sneaky / deceptive/ 'secret stealth' I'm sick and tired of it being subtly knocked at.

A year and a half ago I finally decided I would fully discover the truth about what I was going through (MTF). I started going to another transgender forum and participated there and by doing so gained knowledge and was able to post and was a happy camper-until my wife found out about it and pitched a fit (to say the least). I then removed all posts I had made and attempted to erase all indicators that I had ever been there. To my reckoning 'Stealth' means to be in a place or situation without drawing any attention to oneself at all. This is what I tried to do when my wife found out about my GID before I was ready. So I attempted to simply blend in with the environment and not draw any attention to myself-so as to prepare in my own way how to take the next steps and do this in an orderly & rational fashion. Was it the best thing I could have done -YES. Did I gain anything in this process-YES. Was I successful in my attempt to hide or blend in with my surroundings-YES!!! Will everyone here think as me that I was stealth-NO and I am not worried if they do or not.
Arguing about this helps nobody and is offensive to some of us who are new here and trying to find a family wherein we belong. Let's try to find common ground where we can all agree on something/anything and build positive relationships with one another.

My 2 cents worth,
Randi

I really don't think the OP meant to be insulting, I think it's just really dry humor and an attempt to be self-deprecating. This thing has kind of taken on a life of it's own though.

QuoteIf it means so little, why do you all still post about it

To me it means the world, if it wasn't possible honestly I'm not sure which direction the transition/death pendulum would have swung...and the jury's not all back yet. Believe it or not threads like this are helpful to me, because there are really tough decisions to make and these passionate discussions make great points on all three halves (badger!).

Quotestealth is refered to as 'in the closet/sneaky / deceptive

This seems exactly opposite. It seems to me that living full time and completely indistinguishable as the women we are would be so far out of the closet that we would be in the backyard. I have a scar on my belly from having stuff removed and since it doesn't protrude out from my tops and call attention to itself, I don't usually hike my top up and show it to people. If it was disfiguring, yeah everyone would know I had belly surgery and there would be no point in trying to have a normal, belly-drama free life, but since it isn't disfiguring I don't feel like I am betraying other belly surgery survivors by not talking about it all the time and showing off the scar. I dunno, that might be a stupid analogy, I just really don't feel like Bella intended to be insulting.

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 15, 2009, 06:48:11 AM
Look, Knock it the hell off with mocking stealth. It's a choice that we make. and our right, just as much as yours to be out. So please refrain from taking the piss. It's not funny.

There would be outrage if 'stealth' defined people began to mock out people.... 'lol look at those silly people parading around being weirdos, they must love the attention...' See where im going with this?

Can't we all respect eachother's choice? It's a way of life. And our choice, and our choice alone. NOBODY has the right to tell anyone how to live, or mock the way they live.

I WRONGLY assumed that in a trans forum, that people would have copped the hell on and realised the hypocracy behind thier words.

Frankly, I never expect to be stealth. But I hope I am not one of the people you are talking about. I think it's pretty sad when people denigrate those who have the chance and choose to be stealth. And I appreciate that some of them, like you, participate in trans communities through the anonymity of the Internet. There is certainly tension between people who are stealth and those who aren't, just as there is tension among factions within any minority community, and it's sad. We're all better off because of the diversity of our experiences in transition (and before and after and around).

Someone said that passing was a prerequisite to stealth, and I agree -- but there seems to be confusion about the term. Some people talk about being stealth to mean being trans but hiding it before transitioning. That's not stealth -- that's called "being in the closet." Not that there's anything wrong with it; it's just a different thing. There might be some ambiguity in what "steath" means, but it has traditionally applied only to people who have transitioned. Despite a few similarities between the two experiences, it's not just stretching the meaning, but completely changing it to use it to mean being in the closet.

I'd also like to respond to Jane's statement, "The more a person tries to hang on to the less they will 'transition'." I think that doesn't really descibe the experience of people such as Andrea James who maintain a career and family ties through transition and live comfortably in the proper gender role afterwards without being stealth. Perhaps it depends on what you mean by "hanging on," but I am happy to "hang on" to the loving family and friends that I have made before I began my transition, as long as they can see me and relate to me as their daughter, sister, aunt, cousine, copine, amie, girl friend, etc., even if it takes some time to get comfortable with that new relationship.

Maybe I just sang too many girl scout songs when I was little. "One is silver and the other gold."

Who's been going around calling me "chin strap lady"?

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 15, 2009, 01:53:08 PM
If it means so little, why do you all still post about it?

And the number of times stealth is refered to as 'in the closet/sneaky / deceptive/ 'secret stealth' I'm sick and tired of it being subtly knocked at.

It's not deceptive at all . Being stealth is not sneaky either. It's just that it is an impossibility for many in the trans-community for multiple reasons.

My name is Isabella, NOT "chin strap lady", so knock it off!

Quote from: Becca on November 13, 2009, 08:25:42 PM
Funny, I've heard the badger reference before but never really got it until now. It's all about context I guess.

[hijack] This post right here made my day.

Interesting note, the game Everquest 2 actually made a raid boss based off this video. [/hijack]

Quote from: Bellaon7 on November 15, 2009, 09:25:15 PM
My name is Isabella, NOT "chin strap lady", so knock it off!

Uh, are you ok?

Quote from: xsocialworker on November 15, 2009, 08:21:17 PM
It's not deceptive at all . Being stealth is not sneaky either. It's just that it is an impossibility for many in the trans-community for multiple reasons.

Not all of us *want* to be stealth even if it possible for us. So please don't imply that it is not possible for non-stealth folks. I personally do not believe in keeping secrets from important people in my life.

Quote from: lexshue on November 16, 2009, 06:13:24 AM
Not all of us *want* to be stealth even if it possible for us. So please don't imply that it is not possible for non-stealth folks. I personally do not believe in keeping secrets from important people in my life.

Apart from relatives who know, I try to impliment it. I do get tired of 'Stelth bashing'. and I admire anyone who is able to do sucessfully as a female.

Again, this is something that we each do in our own way.  Some people can't manage stealth for any number of reasons, some of which have nothing to do with how "passable" they are.  Some who could do stealth don't want to for any number of reasons.  Statements that imply that stealth people are sneaky or non-stealth people somehow aren't real women or men are not helpful to the general discourse.

Stealth is not better or worse than non-stealth.  It is a personal choice given the needs and situation of the individual.  For some it is a vital decision that is very serious; for others it is something they can have fun with. 

Those who have fun with their transition and the various concepts inherent in transitioning and being transsexual are (usually) not making fun of those who find the process deadly serious.  They're just having fun with their peculiar lives.

I for one usually find a little levity makes the bitter pills easier to swallow.  But that's just me.

- Kate

Every year there are people born in America who wish they were born in France.  Some move to France early because their parents move there or they go there with a relative to live.  They learn the language and integrate successfully into the French culture and way of life.  By the time they are in their 20's no one knows they were born in America.

But there are also those Americans who, for varying reasons, don't get to move to France until later in life.  They have a hard time mastering the language and culture but they are happy they at least are now living in France.

And there are some who just have a natural gift for being French.  It's nothing they did, they were just born with it.

The French don't like Americans and don't want them living there.  So if they sense or know someone was born in America, they are immediately prejudiced against them and discriminate against them.  So all American born people know they must do their best to move about imperceptibly if they want to avoid prejudice and discrimination.

When the American born people get together they have a commonality and like to tell their stories.  The ones who came over very early don't understand the plight of the ones who came over late or what it was like living in the wrong country for so long.  The ones who came over late wish they could have come over early.  And the ones who have that natural ability to integrate just feel lucky.

For the most part they all get along until an early arriver says she doesn't feel comfortable with a late arriver because they might "out" them.  A late arriver is upset with the early arriver for not being more compassionate.  The natural understands both sides.  So little by little the American born people begin to lose their bond and the group splinters.

Julie

Quote from: lexshue on November 16, 2009, 06:13:24 AM
Not all of us *want* to be stealth even if it possible for us. So please don't imply that it is not possible for non-stealth folks. I personally do not believe in keeping secrets from important people in my life.

There is no secret keeping.

I have YET to be asked by friends 'what was your asigned sex at birth?' or 'what sex were you raised?'
I am a girl, they know a girl.... they know everything there is to know about ME, thier friend. The person they met, and have known. All that matters is shes real, and honest, and nothing they know has been a lie.  This is often one of the main angles that the 'non stealth' groups weild. 'Decipt' 'lies' and 'secrets'...

Why do you feel so guilty about being seen as the gender you profess to be? It seems a lot here, NOT all people that are out by a long way, but a lot none the less, are out, because for some reason or another, they 'prefer' to be seen as a transsexual, being seen as different is important to them. And being 'just another woman' doesnt accomplish the goal of being a somebody they seak without a good amount of effort on thier part.

Of course, there are those that are out, because they want to, but are doing it for noble reasons, I aplaud them. I couldn't do that. I'm not strong enough to stand in your shoes.

Stealth transpeople, do so for thier own reasons, its not shame, its not cowardace, but its simply a choice we don't often consiously make.... I know that I didn't wake up one day and decide.... " Hey, you know what? today im going to go stealth!" It was a series of interconnected events, and a serious dose of 'living my life' Something relatively unavoidable at university, that culminated in me dropping off the trans radar, and not really caring to find the ladder back on.

So For me, atleast, it's not a case of 'not wanting to be associated with them', and those that choose that route, do so under a misguided notion of 'escaping trans'. That's impossible to date.

Nobody can ever change time, we were all born, even dying won't change that. Yes, I'm Trans, but i practice a forgotten art within the trans community.... I live. Non trans people really don't think about thier sex or gender very often, and when you actually try that, life begins to mellow out, and become normal, and (now the key part) after several years living as a girl, Its normal, and without questioning gender every 5 minutes, its serene.... so calm, relaxed, and finally little things seem big, what im going to wear that day, or what such and such said mean the world to me.... I've managed to stop analysing gender, something we do too much of, and frankly, It's a breath of fresh air, I suggest we all try it, out, or stealth, it makes a huge difference to your state of mind.

Julie: I love that analogy Although I suspect there's more to the 'old mover/young mover' divide than outlined there, a 'one side or the other' view.

Quote from: The None Blonde on November 16, 2009, 08:35:45 AM
I have YET to be asked by friends 'what was your asigned sex at birth?' or 'what sex were you raised?'

More typical questions for me are:
* What kind of birth control do you use? -> Why are you sterile?
* Do you take any medication? -> Why do take estrogen?
* Why do you need to dilate?
etc

Of course most people are not so close to ask those kind of things. But with close friends it tends to come up as time passes.

Quote from: lexshue on November 16, 2009, 09:17:15 AM
More typical questions for me are:
* What kind of birth control do you use? -> Why are you sterile?
* Do you take any medication? -> Why do take estrogen?
* Why do you need to dilate?
etc

Of course most people are not so close to ask those kind of things. But with close friends it tends to come up as time passes.

I get asked some of those questions as well and other women talk to me personally about their women's problems.