So, recently I was asked by an acquaintance who knows of my TG the above question. I never thought of it before. I don't think it's true in MOST cases...and I said this to this person, then he replied "then why do most of them act feminine?"

I don't know how to answer this, he sorta has a point. Any suggestions?

We do have a mutual friend who is a gay male, and he is friends with all women, and even goes to things like stagettes and other traditionally female events, where he is often the only male.

So I'm stuck. I don't think this guy is TG, but how can I clear that up with the asker of that question?

Chrissi

There's a difference between embracing one's feminine side, and having a female gender identity.

Most gay men don't consider themselves TG and are not accepting of TG women.
Of coarse there are exceptions to that.

Also, most men who are attracted to TG women do not consider themselves as gay men

Most gay men are not accepting of TG women?? I have been rejected by a few, but I didn't think it was a trend....

Quote from: Icephoenyx on November 15, 2009, 11:01:22 PM
Most gay men are not accepting of TG women?? I have been rejected by a few, but I didn't think it was a trend....

Just going off my own experience. Your mileage may vary. 

Most gay men are manly men who like other men. ie: Body builders

NO

Not even most, simply NO. Now there could be a TG girl who also happens top identify as gay in one moment of her life but thats its another thing.

As for why SOME, act feminine, well thats behavior not gender... And also the feminine thing ina  gay its a kinda stupid stereotypical thing from the past.

Despite the current trend to show gay men as masculine or "normal" as it has been used here, still in my experience at least the vast majority.. and I mean VAST majority of gay males I know are overtly feminine - moreso even than the MTFs I meet normally.

I too am very feminine in my behaviors and have been questioned for being gay all my life (the fact I was attracted to other males remained secret), but I recognize that were I only gay I'd not have this overwhelming desire to be and be perceived as female.

So while I don't believe there to be a tie from homosexuality to transsexuality, I definitely see a relationship between male femininity and homosexuality.  That isn't to say that one causes the other, but they seem to appear together often enough.

A gay man acting effeminate is stereotypical.  Most, that I know do not act femme at all.  They act like any guy.  Even to the point of the sports, guns, and whatever else they seem to talk about, guys that is.


Janet

Quote from: Janet Lynn on November 16, 2009, 12:04:43 AM
A gay man acting effeminate is stereotypical.  Most, that I know do not act femme at all.  They act like any guy.  Even to the point of the sports, guns, and whatever else they seem to talk about, guys that is.


Janet

That's been my experience too. All the gay dude's I've known were just as macho as any other straight guy, and just as discriminative. I've met some feminine ones before, though.

People are people. They come in all shapes and sizes and personalities regardless. I do think that with certain stereotypes, people feel the need to live up to that or perhaps don't have much of a stigma for acting a certain way. Just as there's a bunch of straight dudes secretly listening to 'girly' or 'gay' music while it's considered OK for the gay guy to listen to it without fear of the same stigma(although he might get stigma for being a certain orientation.)

Certain stereotypes just leave some people free to partake of something or act a certain way. And it certainly applies to gender and orientation. I'm a straight guy, but I've been raised as a girl, I didn't have to worry about what made me 'less' of a man or effeminate before. Sure, I wouldn't say I'm 'girly' or 'effeminate', but there are things I think are stupid that people make a big deal about for straight guys. Like listening to certain music or watching certain movies or being interested in certain things. It was actually a bunch of gay macho guys who made fun of me for listening to a certain singer and I thought it was stupid of them to make fun of me for that reason. I thought they would think it was dumb to judge someone based on music and orientation. Just because you're discriminated against doesn't mean you're free of ignorance it seems.

I do think stereotypes can be appropriate, if the person is acting like one, but overall I don't really like them.

But to address the OP, being TG isn't about 'acting' a certain way, or I don't think it is. It runs much deeper than that. Gender isn't orientation, so no, I wouldn't consider an effeminate gay male TG unless he happened to be FTM or was in the closet about being a straight MTF.

Quote from: Icephoenyx on November 15, 2009, 10:22:06 PM
I don't know how to answer this, he sorta has a point. Any suggestions?

Clif notes version:
Gender expression, dress and mannerisms, are not the same as gender identity, the sense of self when it comes to who one is (man, woman, both, neither)

Within the gay (men) community, there are subcultures based on roles and expression. (mostly sexual in nature) It's all too easy for the layperson to confuse the mentioned points.

(hopefully that helped a little)

I'm a gay male and I am NOT feminine. Now my 2 cismale mates are far more feminine than I am but you wouldn't know just being around them. Generally the more feminine gay males usually are the bottoms and are more the submissive type. Tops are pretty much your dominant male that just happen to prefer men.

As with anything tho, people are people and act they way they were born to act or trained to act depending on who and how they were raised.

Feminine =/= female. Problem solved.

And yes, not all, or even most, gay men act "feminine".
And what we deem "feminine" (behavior and dress wise) is cultural. In certain older cultures "pants" were considered feminine wear.

Quote from: Ketsy on November 15, 2009, 10:56:04 PM
There's a difference between embracing one's feminine side, and having a female gender identity.

Exactly. 

Jay

Yeah, the steroeotypical Gay man is femme, not TG.
As far as I know, they have no problem with being men.

Sexual identity and gender identity are entirely different. Many of the gay men I know are very macho and prefer macho partners. My experience and opinion.

People often confuse sexual orientation with gender identity/expression. They are different things.

sex, your physical body, chromosomes, etc

gender identity, who you are, internal sense of gender

gender expression, how you express gender

sexual orientation is who you want to partner with

A gay male can express his gender as femme, or butch or anywhere on the spectrum.

For that matter, so can a trans person 

Z

The answer seems relatively simple to me. There's many aspects of someones personality which can be masculine or feminine in behavior, but they're all independent of gender identity which is something else.

How that relates to transgender, well you'd have to define transgender first.

I've known a lot of gay men.  Very few of them have acted feminine in any way.  A good portion of them seemed to have problems with women (misogynist), while many of the others really like women – they just aren't attracted to them.

Within the "gay community" there are lots of different categories, depending on how each sees himself and what kind of man he is attracted to.  But most of the men I knew were just normal men even if they weren't particularly guy-like (i.e. like men in a beer commercial).  None of them were TG as far as I know, including my best friend, who likes to dress up as an obviously fake woman once in a while.

- Kate

So I tried explaining this to my acquaintance earlier today, to no avail.

He still thinks that just because our gay friend went to a stagette that he must want to be a woman..... :S

Oh, and because 99% of his friends are female