While researching, I came across a blog that I totally agree with. I've been thinking it for a while, but now I actually have words for it.

Gender expression is not  gender identity.

How many of you agree?

Here's a quote from the poster "Not Aiden".

"Gender expression is not gender identity. Just because I like glitter and stuffed animals does not mean that I'm something other than male. I simply have a different way of expressing my gender. I'm a bit of a queen, much like my non-trans friends.

One thing I see more and more newly out kids doing is saying "well, I'm not FtM because I'm not really guy-ish enough..."  You don't have to be macho to be a transguy.  Just because you're not a perfect 1950s image does not mean you have to identify as genderqueer.  If you really do feel like you're not a guy or a girl then that's great, but don't say it because you think there's only one way to be a guy.

By the same token, just because you like sports and cars and...I dunno, spitting doesn't mean you have to be trans.  Plenty of tomboys exist in the world.  My mother is one of them, she'd be vastly offended if anyone implied she wasn't a woman.  That's why gender and gender expression are split, it all comes down to how you feel inside rather than how you present outside."

I think I'd agree up to a point.

I consider myself androgyne/genderfluid/genderflux. I don't really like the term genderqueer because "queer" can be taken to mean strange. I like genderBLEEP even less because the explicative is unnecessarily harsh.

Gender expression, I think, is the way that one expresses one's gender identity. I'm andro+gyne, so I try to make my default expression a combination of what is considered traditionally male and traditionally female. I do this because it pleases me to do so, not so much as an intention gender performance. I feel that being somewhat between fe/male that a combination expression is not only more honest, but that it feels more natural to me.

Absolutely agree. I've always thought of this even before I knew all about gender identity.

I also agree with Shades as well, but I think in a way they kind of merge. They're just explaining two different things, but I find them both correct.

There are too many kinds of people regardless of their sex that all have different quirks or interests. Some have been deemed by society as being a certain gender. For me, I do like the stereotypical male behaviour(not the negatives) because it feels like it is me. I'm not trying to act this way, it's just how I feel comfortable expressing myself. However, because I was raised as a female for a good portion of my life, I've been able to partake in some feminine things without feeling like my gender was put into question up until now. Even then people who know me don't consider me particularly feminine.

So gender expression can influence your gender identity, I think, but they are different things.

Yeah I def agree and have tried explaining the difference between gender expression and gender identity to non-trans people before.  I remember my mom asking me if I'd take the name she was going to name me if I had been born a boy and I said something like oh that's so manly and my step-dad was just like uhh isn't that what you're going for? And was almost offended that I told him I didn't want to be super macho and manly.  I'm not feminine by any means but I'm not the manly man that a lot of people think transmen should be.  The way I see it is there are lots of guys who are comfortable with being a guy but still express themselves in a more feminine way, why shouldn't transguys be allowed to also do that?

Quote from: Chamillion on November 18, 2009, 08:02:00 PM
Yeah I def agree and have tried explaining the difference between gender expression and gender identity to non-trans people before.  I remember my mom asking me if I'd take the name she was going to name me if I had been born a boy and I said something like oh that's so manly and my step-dad was just like uhh isn't that what you're going for? And was almost offended that I told him I didn't want to be super macho and manly.  I'm not feminine by any means but I'm not the manly man that a lot of people think transmen should be.  The way I see it is there are lots of guys who are comfortable with being a guy but still express themselves in a more feminine way, why shouldn't transguys be allowed to also do that?

Exactly. I mean a lot of guys think "im not macho enough to pass", but its not about that, its about you being comfortable with yourself.

Not every person who experienced cross-gender behaviors and preferences also desires to be the other sex.  In fact I'd say it is probably very rare.  This means there is something more to the TS than just cross-gender behaviors - something else inside that also makes us want to change our sex.  It is reasonable therefore to believe that the "something else" that makes us want to change our sex could exist without cross-gender behaviors.  More often than not though, those who are TS start out questioning themselves due to some sort of cross-gender behavior.

Quote from: interalia on November 18, 2009, 11:34:13 PM
Not every person who experienced cross-gender behaviors and preferences also desires to be the other sex.  In fact I'd say it is probably very rare.  This means there is something more to the TS than just cross-gender behaviors - something else inside that also makes us want to change our sex.  It is reasonable therefore to believe that the "something else" that makes us want to change our sex could exist without cross-gender behaviors.  More often than not though, those who are TS start out questioning themselves due to some sort of cross-gender behavior.

Exactly this.

Great post, ccc, I agree wholeheartedly, and I think if more people would open their eyes and see things in this kind of light, we would feel less pressure and discrimination upon us- not just from other, but from ourselves. 'Oh noes, I can't like this, I'm supposed to be a transguy, guys don't express themselves that way, which would make me a girl! Ensue not enjoying life!'

I used to get told all of the time that I couldn't really 'be a man' because I wore eyeliner. 'Well if you were serious about being a guy, you wouldn't wear eyeliner'. That makes absolutely no sense, because there are asstons of natal males prancing around in it, and it is not a deciding factor in my 'guyness'. There are men and women of all different walks of life and creeds, it's silly to hold ourselves RIGOROUSLY to one standard of maleness.

Quote from: Chamillion on November 18, 2009, 08:02:00 PMThe way I see it is there are lots of guys who are comfortable with being a guy but still express themselves in a more feminine way, why shouldn't transguys be allowed to also do that?

well said!!

Quote from: Cairus on November 19, 2009, 12:16:29 AM
Great post, ccc, I agree wholeheartedly, and I think if more people would open their eyes and see things in this kind of light, we would feel less pressure and discrimination upon us- not just from other, but from ourselves. 'Oh noes, I can't like this, I'm supposed to be a transguy, guys don't express themselves that way, which would make me a girl! Ensue not enjoying life!'

I used to get told all of the time that I couldn't really 'be a man' because I wore eyeliner. 'Well if you were serious about being a guy, you wouldn't wear eyeliner'. That makes absolutely no sense, because there are asstons of natal males prancing around in it, and it is not a deciding factor in my 'guyness'. There are men and women of all different walks of life and creeds, it's silly to hold ourselves RIGOROUSLY to one standard of maleness.

I see guys wear eyeliner all the time. I personally like to wear it, but I don't anymore.

But it sucks when people don't understand the difference, and assume that you can't do certain things.

I think it comes down to the old 'you're so butch you had to become a guy' and vice versa. People are still looking at it from behavioral point. So if someone's not uber butch, people don't get why they would want to transition. You know 'why transition if you like 'girly' stuff anyway'? Seems counterproductive to them. btw I like eyeliner sometimes too. 

Quote from: Cairus on November 19, 2009, 12:16:29 AM
Great post, ccc, I agree wholeheartedly, and I think if more people would open their eyes and see things in this kind of light, we would feel less pressure and discrimination upon us- not just from other, but from ourselves. 'Oh noes, I can't like this, I'm supposed to be a transguy, guys don't express themselves that way, which would make me a girl! Ensue not enjoying life!'

I used to get told all of the time that I couldn't really 'be a man' because I wore eyeliner. 'Well if you were serious about being a guy, you wouldn't wear eyeliner'. That makes absolutely no sense, because there are asstons of natal males prancing around in it, and it is not a deciding factor in my 'guyness'. There are men and women of all different walks of life and creeds, it's silly to hold ourselves RIGOROUSLY to one standard of maleness.

I just felt the need to say that it's nice to see reminders of this kind of thing.

Personally, I know I get very caught-up in (and almost obsess about) trying to behave and present myself just right so that I have the best possible chance of passing as male. Sometimes I try so hard that I forget why I'm doing it in the first place: so that I can be myself. I have found it to be rather counter-productive to go so over-board with trying to appear masculine that you lose yourself amidst the gender roles all over again. I spent way too long as the slave of one socio-political ideal, and it's easy for me to fall into the trap of doing the same with the other.

Sometimes I just have to say things to myself aloud. For example: "Dammit, I don't care what people think, I like to wear my Totoro hat that I crocheted myself!" 

Quote from: ccc on November 18, 2009, 05:50:04 PM
"Gender expression is not gender identity. Just because I like glitter and stuffed animals does not mean that I'm something other than male. I simply have a different way of expressing my gender. I'm a bit of a queen, much like my non-trans friends.

One thing I see more and more newly out kids doing is saying "well, I'm not FtM because I'm not really guy-ish enough..."  You don't have to be macho to be a transguy.  Just because you're not a perfect 1950s image does not mean you have to identify as genderqueer.  If you really do feel like you're not a guy or a girl then that's great, but don't say it because you think there's only one way to be a guy.

By the same token, just because you like sports and cars and...I dunno, spitting doesn't mean you have to be trans.  Plenty of tomboys exist in the world.  My mother is one of them, she'd be vastly offended if anyone implied she wasn't a woman.  That's why gender and gender expression are split, it all comes down to how you feel inside rather than how you present outside."

I completely agree.  For a long time, I've been wanting to explain the same thing to people, but never conceptualized it as gender expression vs. gender identity.  Using those terms makes the concept seem simple and easy to explain.  I'm going to use this in the future.

I know it will keep coming up in discussion throughout my life because my gender identity is male, while my gender expression is androgynous (to make a generalization).  I've never thought there was anything wrong or strange about that. 

When I dress in women's clothing or wear make-up, I feel like I'm cross-dressing, but sometimes I like it.  Sometimes it's fun.  Then again, I'm a gay transguy, and cross-dressing goes along with the old collection of gay stereotypes, so maybe it's not a good example to use . . .

Maybe a better example would be, "I know I have a male identity because I think like a guy and have always thought of myself as male.  My gender expression is more of of an expression of my unique personality, and therefore doesn't fit into a binary gender system.  For instance, I like to work on cars and go fishing, but I also like to sew."

Actually, MAYBE gender identity IS more connected to the binary gender system, whereas gender expression is more of an expression of one's individuality. 

I'm thinking myself into a state of confusion now.  What do you think?

Though I see the two as different, there are many who see them as pretty much the same, and I don't think they are wrong in that, its just how they see the world and their place in it.

Quote from: Alexmakenoise on November 20, 2009, 12:44:17 AM
When I dress in women's clothing or wear make-up, I feel like I'm cross-dressing, but sometimes I like it.  Sometimes it's fun. 

Me too.