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Could the Bible be evil?

Started by Robin., November 20, 2009, 05:52:15 PM

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Robin.

I don't mean to offend anyone by this, so plz forgive me if it does offend you...not that i think it will..but anyways its just a question that poped into my head. And I am interested in what christians think of this.

Anyways:

If one does wrong but did not know anything such as to lead them to think that wrongness in that way was possible. Then I would think they were innocent. Like a child running with scissors and hurting herself, or a baby throwing a sharp object at her mom.
If acting with such ignorance is then innocant then it would seem that informing someone of the wrongness of an action would be wrong because that then leaves them responsible if they take that action.

So I was thinking that since the Bible tells us what is wrong, by then knowing what is wrong we become culpable. So it would be better not to know. Thus better not to have the bible...

Perhaps this would even have something to do with eating of the tree of knowledge...
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Key

We're born with morals, the innate knowledge of what is right and what is wrong.  The interesting note about that is that even science cannot show the origin or morals in DNA, it is something that cannot be traced by any known means, there is nothing you can turn off in your brain or in someone else's brain that will get rid of their morals. 

On that note, by reading the bible or not, we are still responsible for knowing right or wrong. 
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Robin.

Quote from: Key on November 20, 2009, 09:25:43 PM
We're born with morals, the innate knowledge of what is right and what is wrong.  The interesting note about that is that even science cannot show the origin or morals in DNA, it is something that cannot be traced by any known means, there is nothing you can turn off in your brain or in someone else's brain that will get rid of their morals. 


I wouldn't agree that we are born with morals.
For one, what of sociopaths?
But that aside, there have been cases where parents or abducters have locked children away their entire lifes, when these children are found they are so lacking in experience in knowledge that they are effectively babies.
You say, we are born with morals. I might agree that we are born with instincts and urges that encourage us to act moraly, but regardless of being born with morals or not, it requires teaching, learning, and experince, to assertain that throwing a knife at another human results in death.
And it requires some connection developed through experience inorder for a human to have reason not to kill something. This is evident since many people think that experincing a negative connection with someone such as that someone killing a loved one warrents killing that someone.

But nontheless from what you have said it would seem that you would agree, at least, that if we were not born with morals my observation is correct?


Quote from: Key on November 20, 2009, 09:25:43 PM
On that note, by reading the bible or not, we are still responsible for knowing right or wrong.

If you are right though and we are born with morals, then we shouldn't need the bible, because we already know.

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Kay

Ah, theology....the never-ending discussion in the Christian community...ever-changing...ever evolving due to modern perspectives on old ideas.
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As a former Christian, I'll throw in my two cents:
= = = = = = = =
From a Christian perspective, they call it "The Good Book"...so you're not likely to find a Christian that will call it evil. 
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Your argument appears to be that it is better to sin in ignorance, than to have knowledge of that sin in order to avoid such evil behavior.    Informing someone of their wrong-doing allows them to change their behavior, so that they do not sin in the future.  Leaving them in ignorance leaves them in sin.  If sin is evil...and evil things must be avoided...then how can it be morally correct for a Christian to leave people to that evil when they can prevent it?
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Now, *IF* the sins of the ignorant are ignored (more on this later), then it is purely a matter of the convenience of the sinner to leave them in ignorance...and if god hate's sin, convenience isn't exactly a compelling argument for allowing someone to live in sin. 
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For example: If someone kills, but is ignorant of the sin...are they better off not knowing?  Is the world better off not telling them?  In a world of ignorant people, the blind lead the blind over a cliff. 
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Your argument is a bit like blaming the existence of law for a punishment/consequence...because perpetual amnesty based upon ignorance would be so much easier on the individual. (How many criminals today would love to take advantage of that sweet deal?  ;)  )
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Now...a major component of your query is whether or not the ignorant are culpable for their sins:
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By thinking that they aren't, you're most likely referring to this quote:
"If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin."  John 15:22
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Theology can be interesting at times, because there is so much room in the bible for different opinions.  How about this quote:
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"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."  Romans 2:12-13
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If it is only the righteous who enter heaven...then where does that leave the ignorant?  Does it really leave them better off...or does it still leave them going to hell?
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Or how about this one:
"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."  Luke 12:47-48
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Apparently the ignorant are still punished...just not as much.  They aren't held to the same standards...but that doesn't mean that they aren't held to SOME standard.  (The old testament would be far more harsh, but we'll ignore that for now)
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Pick your parable....biblical theology is often the art of choosing the words you prefer to hear, and twisting them to fit your own beliefs.  An easy thing to do when commands aren't given directly (as is often done in the old testament), but are rather spoken indirectly in parable (as is more frequent in the new testament). 
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Now...the bible does prescribe a means of atonement for those who sin in ignorance.  In the old testament that would be found in Leviticus 4.  In the new testament, the exact means would be debatable, but still possible.
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Though I do admit...it is interesting to point out that "in the beginning" apparently god was just fine allowing Adam & Eve to live in ignorance...and to sin in that ignorance.  (reading later in the old testament, nakedness is seen as a sin)  It wasn't until they ate of the tree of knowledge, and that they knew of good and evil, that god appeared to have an issue with their actions. 
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So to answer your question...to a Christian believer...no, the bible can never be evil, because to them it is the word of god...who can't be evil, because he is innately good.  Or, on your other vein of thought...to put it simply...there is a difference between "sin" and "consequence".    Sin is evil no matter what.  Sin harms others no matter whether done in ignorance or not.  Knowledge and "Consequence" are put there to help avoid sin...because sin is evil.  Because of this, knowledge and consequence...cannot be seen as evil..as they directly oppose what is sinful/evil.  And therefore the bible which provides us with such, cannot be evil.
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Now...that's a christian perspective that you asked for.  My agnostic perspective would probably be a bit more mixed and nuanced....and hard as it may be to believe...far more lengthy.  :P
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Just Kate

I prefer to have the choice to do wrong and knowledge of what it is.  This way, if I act "right" it is because I have chosen to.  This means I'm acting in a way God would desire me to act because I choose to, and not out of ignorance.  Of course the statement I'm making is independent of the Bible, I'm just speaking to your point directly.
Ill no longer be defined by my condition. From now on, I'm just, Kate.

http://autumnrain80.blogspot.com
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LordKAT

My bible says that people were innocent until they ate from the tree of knowledge. Now that they ate, they knew better where before they were innocent no matter what they did from lack of knowing it was wrong.

but whatever.
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Lachlann

Quote from: interalia on November 21, 2009, 12:40:26 AM
I prefer to have the choice to do wrong and knowledge of what it is.  This way, if I act "right" it is because I have chosen to.  This means I'm acting in a way God would desire me to act because I choose to, and not out of ignorance.  Of course the statement I'm making is independent of the Bible, I'm just speaking to your point directly.
I agree with this.

Also, God makes the rules. He can state what the exceptions are, even if the fable of knowledge is not the answer you would like. Now, you can debate on the legitimacy of the bible being God's word or that it may be tampered with.
Don't be scared to fly alone, find a path that is your own
Love will open every door it's in your hands, the world is yours
Don't hold back and always know, all the answers will unfold
What are you waiting for, spread your wings and soar
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jesse

Quote from: Robin. on November 20, 2009, 09:46:39 PM
I wouldn't agree that we are born with morals.
For one, what of sociopaths?


sociopaths know right from wrong they simply dont care if they didnt you couldnt try them in court for their crimes as they would be legally insane. the bible can not be evil or good for that matter as it is a human construct a history if you will of the jewish people combined with moral teachings right and wrong.... a child isnt born with morals it is taught right and wrong acording to the constructs of mores and norms of the society it is brought up in i offer as evidence hitler youth. how ever the notion of good and evil are not human constructs nero has a thread on this for those who might be interested in that discussion
jessica
like a knife that cuts you the wound heals but them scars those scars remain
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Genevieve Swann

There some fairly evil scriptures. The devil, satan, anti-christ etcetera were all created by man. We have laws to live by that keep us all somewhat moral. I think we all know when we have done something to hurt another and most of us try to avoid hurting others. Many religious persons have good moral values and no ethics. I beleive it is highly unethical to use God to lign your pockets. My God doesn't have any bills to pay. So maybe the bible is not evil but the people involved are.

heatherrose



Is a gun evil?

If you are starving?

If your life is threatened?

If you are enraged?

A gun could be considered a work of art.
Man using his God given intellect to harness the forces and elements
of nature to fashion a tool to protect, sustain or destroy life.
Evil is in the intent of the user. In literature evil is in the
interpretation and resulting deeds of the individual.

Nothing is inherently evil.

Who is the author of evil?
We are to believe that ALL things were created
by God and without God there is NOTHING.
Therefore can we not understand that God IS evil?



"I have always wanted to have a neighbor just like you,
I've always wanted to live in a neighborhood with you.

So let's make the most of this beautiful day,
Since we're together, we might as well say,
Would you be mine?
Could you be mine?
Won't you be my neighbor?" - Fred Rogers
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Robin.

Quote from: heatherrose on November 24, 2009, 07:37:41 AM


Is a gun evil?

If you are starving?

If your life is threatened?

If you are enraged?

A gun could be considered a work of art.
Man using his God given intellect to harness the forces and elements
of nature to fashion a tool to protect, sustain or destroy life.
Evil is in the intent of the user. In literature evil is in the
interpretation and resulting deeds of the individual.

Nothing is inherently evil.

Who is the author of evil?
We are to believe that ALL things were created
by God and without God there is NOTHING.
Therefore can we not understand that God IS evil?




I like that, I'd say I agree.
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Janet_Girl

The Bible is nothing more than a book.  It is what people do with that book that can be classified as evil.

Do we stone people to death for Adultery?

Eye for an Eye.  The most misquoted passage.  People use it for all sorts of crimes.

Suffer not a witch to live.  Caused the murder of thousands of people at the word of one person.

It is just a book.  Use it as guidance or for inspiration is a good thing.  Use it for atrocities and it is evil.  It is just a book.



Janet
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deviousxen

As much as I despise this religion with every fibre in my being, regardless of my fascination with it, its not the book as much as it is the stupidity of humanity in general... I'm in art school...


We really are...

We're all the same. We're all the dumbest freaking monkeys the world has ever seen.



I think there should be an international day of shame for the things people have done to each other, the earth and the knowledge given to them.. Where it is REQUIRED that all humans call themselves A$$h0l3s all day long until they can finally be fed...
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Hannah

Quote from: Janet Lynn on November 24, 2009, 11:00:15 AM
Suffer not a witch to live

as an interesting side note, Joseph Smith "retranslated" a few parts of the bible and that line was one of them. He replaced the word witch with murderer.
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Miniar

Seeing as "evil" is only a matter of perspective, the Bible can be seen as evil.



"Everyone who has ever built anywhere a new heaven first found the power thereto in his own hell" - Nietzsche
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Just Kate

Quote from: Miniar on November 24, 2009, 11:28:57 AM
Seeing as "evil" is only a matter of perspective, the Bible can be seen as evil.

I see Miniar as evil.


Ok no I don't - I love me some Miniar. :D
Ill no longer be defined by my condition. From now on, I'm just, Kate.

http://autumnrain80.blogspot.com
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Miniar




"Everyone who has ever built anywhere a new heaven first found the power thereto in his own hell" - Nietzsche
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Robin.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on November 24, 2009, 11:00:15 AM


Eye for an Eye.  The most misquoted passage.  People use it for all sorts of crimes.


Janet

And yet people seem to ignore what Jesus said in I think the sermon of the mount or whatever... When he said essentially; when slaped on one cheek one should turn the other to be slapped as well.
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Nicky

Well, using the morals I was 'born' with, as Key thinks they are, I think the bible is an evil book. In terms of my own morality, so much bad ->-bleeped-<- has been done in the name of the bible or been instigated by the bible, it is an evil piece of work. It is an object of an evil thing, organised religion.

I guess you could argue that it is how you use it that is evil etc.. same with guns. But I think thoughts will always be far more dangerous than guns. On a scale of evil it is much greater. I think the bible is a bit like a nuclear bomb compared to a gun. (actually I think most of us humans are stupid, and stupid people do stupid things with whatever they are given. The bible is a very dangerous and evil thing in the hands of stupid people)

P.s. If I get slapped on one cheek I want the other one slapped as well, otherwise I'll feel ripped of for paying for it....
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Flan

Quote from: Janet Lynn on November 24, 2009, 11:00:15 AM
Eye for an Eye.  The most misquoted passage.  People use it for all sorts of crimes.

Quote from: Mahatma Gandhi
An eye for an eye, and soon the whole world is blind.
Soft kitty, warm kitty, little ball of fur. Happy kitty, sleepy kitty, purr, purr, purr.
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