Supremacism is the belief that a particular race, religion, gender, species, sexual orientation, belief system or culture is superior to others and entitles those who identify with it to dominate, control or rule those who do not.

The group that is fighting hardest against allowing LGBT people the same rights and privileges as everyone else is the Christian Supremacist.  (Just like not all whites are white supremacists, all Christians are not Christian Supremacists, so please don't go accuse me of meaning "all")

The Christian Supremacist believes that their particular version of christianity is superior to others and entitles those who identify with it to dominate, control or rule those who do not.

Fred Phelps is an example of the most extreme.  Others like Jerry Fawell, Pat Robertson, James Dobson, are the ones who seem to be the major players in promoting Christian Supremicism. 

Same sex marriage's main (and possibly only) opponent comes from Christian Supremacists.  The same for transgender rights, ENDA and other movements in the US that are attempting to keep or gain the same civil rights as the rest of the citizens.

Just like the white supremacists, who dehumanize those they feel are inferior, Christian Supremacists demean, isolate, and to some degree dehumanize transgender people.  Anyone who has looked into the mind of a killer knows that dehumanization is a major factor in the killer being able to murder people without remorse.  Same goes for those who maim and torture other human beings. 

Last year over 100 trans people were murdered.  And you can bet the majority of the killers saw their victim as less than human.  Christian Supremacists played a part in that dehumanization process.

I've read their vitriol and heard their speeches.  While their messages of supremacy is subliminal, it's still there and very effective.  They are no better than white supremacists or any other supremacists and they must be exposed for what they are.

Julie

Fred Phelps is an example of the most extreme.  Others like Jerry Fawell, Pat Robertson, James Dobson, are the ones who seem to be the major players in promoting Christian Supremicism.

Same sex marriage's main (and possibly only) opponent comes from Christian Supremacists. 

Unless, or until you add the Pope and Gordon B. Hinckley in there it does not wash.  The major opposistion in California and in other places comes from the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of Jesus Christ (Latter Day Saints).

And if you want to read the real deal, not the clown car stuff like Phelps - who even the people on his side seem to hate as being nothing more than an attention whore - Fallwell is pretty much retired, Robinson is content making money off his network, its the new people that are running this show, and they are much more dangerous then the grandstanders that came before.  Check out the church that Sara Palin belongs to, or look up 'quiverfull movement', or 'Dominionism', or 'Christian Reconstructionism' and find out what these people are really thinking, and where they want to go. 

There is a site called Theocracy Watch which is a pretty good starting point, and has a lot of the basic stuff well laid out.

Moreover, what exactly are you doing about it? I think that the following section is basically correct, and if so, preventing this is a job for all of us.

All radical movements need a crisis or a prolonged period of instability to achieve power. And we are not in a period of crisis now. But another catastrophic terrorist attack on American soil, a series of huge environmental disasters or an economic meltdown will hand to these radicals the opening they seek. Manipulating our fear and anxiety, promising to make us safe and secure, giving us the assurance that they can vanquish the forces that mean to do us harm, these radicals, many of whom have achieved powerful positions in the Executive and legislative branches of government, as well as the military {ed note.  The Air Force in particular}, will ask us only to surrender our rights, to pass them the unlimited power they need to battle the forces of darkness.

They will have behind them tens of millions of angry, disenfranchised Americans longing for revenge and yearning for a mythical utopia, Americans who embraced a theology of despair because we offered them nothing else.

Moreover, they are not afraid to get out, to be seen and to be identified with the movement, something we have a very real problem with.

And it sound eerily similar to another Supremacist group that gained power, and they proclaimed God was on their side and had the blessing of the Pope.  And this group openly killed thousands of the dehumanized people that they pointed out.

Sound familiar?  Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.



Janet

Yes, Phelps is a nut and everyone knows it.  I used him as an extreme example.  Fawell is retired to the next life.  No doubt the Pope and Hinkley are major players.  The organizations they head up contribute the majority of money to the anti-LGBT campaigns.

But the point is it's a supremacist attitude that compels them and their followers to believe they are right in denying "outsiders" (even if they're not) their basic human rights.

Supremacist has a negative stigma attached to it.  Attach supremacist to these people and organizations that are trying to force their ideals on the rest of us and get it to stick.  After all, what they do matches the definition of supremacist so why not?

It's like Nancy Reagan's "Say No" campaign.  Eventually it catches on.

Back in the good old days, when white trash trailer park types would dress up in old bed sheets and make-shift Nazi uniforms the joke was:  Don't you think that in order to be a Supremacist you ought to be able to at least spell it right?  And, what's so damn supreme about meeting in a double wide in the first place?

But those were just dumb, inbreed hicks.  I don't think that about Der Panzer Pope (who really, really was a for real Nazi) or Hinkley (or his successor, I think he passed not long ago, he was just the last one I knew about).  They are well educated, very organized and have more money than god behind them.  They are a most formidable foe. 

Jerry Falwell is a very good Christian Supremacist - in that he's not retired, he's dead!  I know, that may be mean and ugly.  I admit it and I don't like it, but I'm not much sorry.  But it isn't any more so than the hate and uglyness he and the other bible-wavers listed and others have spewed for years.  They of couse are entitled to their opinions, but their actions and their supporters are anti-democratic in the extreme.  Frankly, I believe they have caused many human rights violations in this country.   

Laura91 stated it best:  I find common sense and logic to be superior to any religion.

Common sense and logic are my religion.  And I sometimes pray in my own church!

SusanKG

Acquainted with many things Christian (much to my dismay at times), I've been keeping my eye on the Quiverfull movement and others of their ilk - they have the potential to gain a lot of followers due to the unrest created by the times.  Normally "gospel hobbyists" (or those who focus on one specific portion of the doctrine and build a religion around it, typically only attract the more extreme, but people are becoming ever more polarized, and with that comes a lot of intensity and potential power.

I would say more to the topic at hand, but it isn't anything you haven't heard me say before.  But to recap briefly, marriage is not a basic human right, but regardless, the government needs to get out of the business of marriage.  The churches think they are trying to protect something they believe is in their domain when actually their motives have more to do with preventing the continued acceptance (and subsequent societal validation) of a lifestyle not in keeping with their faith.

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Post Merge: November 25, 2009, 12:55:41 AM

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Quote from: tekla on November 25, 2009, 12:27:58 AM
...or Hinkley (or his successor, I think he passed not long ago, he was just the last one I knew about)...

The current president of the LDS church is Thomas S. Monson.  You are correct, President Hinckley died early last year.

Quote from: tekla on November 24, 2009, 02:10:09 PM
Fred Phelps is an example of the most extreme.  Others like Jerry Fawell, Pat Robertson, James Dobson, are the ones who seem to be the major players in promoting Christian Supremicism.

Same sex marriage's main (and possibly only) opponent comes from Christian Supremacists. 

Unless, or until you add the Pope and Gordon B. Hinckley in there it does not wash.  The major opposistion in California and in other places comes from the Roman Catholic Church and the Church of Jesus Christ (Latter Day Saints).

And if you want to read the real deal, not the clown car stuff like Phelps - who even the people on his side seem to hate as being nothing more than an attention whore - Fallwell is pretty much retired, Robinson is content making money off his network, its the new people that are running this show, and they are much more dangerous then the grandstanders that came before.  Check out the church that Sara Palin belongs to, or look up 'quiverfull movement', or 'Dominionism', or 'Christian Reconstructionism' and find out what these people are really thinking, and where they want to go. 

There is a site called Theocracy Watch which is a pretty good starting point, and has a lot of the basic stuff well laid out.

Moreover, what exactly are you doing about it? I think that the following section is basically correct, and if so, preventing this is a job for all of us.

All radical movements need a crisis or a prolonged period of instability to achieve power. And we are not in a period of crisis now. But another catastrophic terrorist attack on American soil, a series of huge environmental disasters or an economic meltdown will hand to these radicals the opening they seek. Manipulating our fear and anxiety, promising to make us safe and secure, giving us the assurance that they can vanquish the forces that mean to do us harm, these radicals, many of whom have achieved powerful positions in the Executive and legislative branches of government, as well as the military {ed note.  The Air Force in particular}, will ask us only to surrender our rights, to pass them the unlimited power they need to battle the forces of darkness.

They will have behind them tens of millions of angry, disenfranchised Americans longing for revenge and yearning for a mythical utopia, Americans who embraced a theology of despair because we offered them nothing else.

Moreover, they are not afraid to get out, to be seen and to be identified with the movement, something we have a very real problem with.

Falwell has been dead for a few years not.

Robetson sold his network to ABC and only has the one hour show now.

Palin hasn't been a member of that described church for a long time - well over a decade IIRC

But more importantly than those, there's not one chance in ten million that you'll see a Christian theocracy in North America. You're more likely, if you wait long enough, to see Muslim theocracies all across Europe.


I don't like the politicization of the church at all, but the era of the Christian Culture is not one that is coming in the future but is a relic of a past that's fading in the rearview.

One need only look at the status of gays in our culture now, as opposed to their status 40 years ago, to understand that.

Thomas S. Monson
From Wiki, edited by me.

In 1945, at age 17, Monson joined the United States Naval Reserve and anticipated participating in World War II in the Pacific theater.  He was sent to San Diego, California but was not moved overseas before the end of the war. His tour of duty lasted six months beyond the end of the war, and after it was completed he returned to the University of Utah. Monson graduated cum laude in 1948 with a bachelor's degree in business management.

He spend most of his business life in newspapers, so he knows how to do propaganda, how to get things in print, how to get things out, how to circulate opinion, and unlike the trailer park gang, he knows how to spell too.  Do not underestimate people like this.  They are not your dad's supremacist.

and, for the record, as long as we're at it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI
I might not like his views - not at all - but that is one impressive resume. I've read some of the stuff he wrote, and its brilliant - wrong - but brilliant.  Oh yeah he knows how to spell too, in several languages, as the Wiki (which is taken straight out of the RCC's propaganda division (not an insult, they have one) In addition to his native German, Benedict XVI fluently speaks Italian, French, English, Spanish, Latin, and also has a knowledge of Portuguese. He can read Ancient Greek and biblical Hebrew.[5] He has stated that his first foreign language is French.   That's nine languages.  I'm impressed.

OK, here is where I get in trouble, but I gots to say it.

A bunch of people in stealth are not going to beat these people, rather, they will allow them to win.  Second, a bunch of people making ribbons or selling buttons are not going to beat them either.  We need people who are serious, hard working, who know 9 languages, who can write, who can speak, who can organize and motivate.  And if we can't find them, then these guys are going to win.

I think part of the reason these so called christian groups are fighting same sex marriage so hard is because they know if they don't they will lose, big time, their political strength.

The RCC has enjoyed for centuries a control of local and world politics and imposed their version of morality on the rest of the world.  But over the centuries that control and power have been waning.  They know this and they are fighting like hell to stop the erosion.

The LDS doesn't have the long history the RCC does but today it certainly enjoys a lot of what the RCC does in political clout and power.  And they aren't afraid to wield it.

What you are saying about their intelligence Kat, is definitely true.  And we need equally intelligent people on our side to counter that.  And I believe we have it.  Our disadvantage is our lesser numbers means we have a smaller pool to draw from.

Same sex marriage will become law.  DOMA will be repealed as will DADT.  I may be dead by then but I do believe it will happen.  And, far off into the future, 'transgender' won't have a negative stigma it does today.  The trend for a more accepting society has been established, so I do believe it will continue.  I think information technology will prevent any kind of serious setback from occurring, unless there's a global catastrophe.  Then it's back to square one.

But it can't hurt trying to attach the supremacist label to those who use their power to prevent others from gaining their civil rights.  Keep throwing it at them and hopefully it will stick.  And you can be sure if it does stick, they will do whatever they can to shed it.

Karl Rove's 2004 election strategy to re-elect GW was largely based on anti-gay rhetoric. It worked for the swing state of Ohio. It still is a major winning issue among hard core conservatives that make up say 40 percent of the population. That is not a small minority. It is unlikely that the trends in acceptance of LBGT rights will continue indefinitely as this group will probably never change their minds.

The New Apostolic Reformation is real and gaining strength among the religious right. Palin did stop her membership in the Wasila church but attends special services as recently as June 2008.

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/9/24/13112/0816/

Remember that before the Nazi's took over Germany, Berlin was a very liberal city. Gays and transgender people were able to express themselves freely. Cabaret the musical is based on the freedom in Berlin at the time. Hitler got hold of power because of several factors, one was the depression and another was a call to return to Christian family values. He courted and got aid and backing from the Catholic Church and was given support by the church for most if not all of the Reich.
Check it out on the net. Including the swastikas prominantly featured on the alter in these churches.  Hitler eventually had them taken down, the church didn't want to!

For details of the Nazi Catholic Church connection:
http://www.emperors-clothes.com/vatican/cpix.htm
The photos there are stunning.

My point is that the same basic framework exists now as did then in Germany.

Don't count these people as nuts. They can and have taken power before. If Obama fails, we may see a return to such a conservative government that fascism will become established.

Maggie

Exactly what I was pointing to, Maggie.



Janet

Quote from: Maggie Kay on November 25, 2009, 11:01:23 AM
Karl Rove's 2004 election strategy to re-elect GW was largely based on anti-gay rhetoric. It worked for the swing state of Ohio. It still is a major winning issue among hard core conservatives that make up say 40 percent of the population. That is not a small minority. It is unlikely that the trends in acceptance of LBGT rights will continue indefinitely as this group will probably never change their minds.

No, I'm not expecting them to change their minds.  But they will one day die.

When looking at the demographics, the younger you are, the more open you are to LGBT issues.  So thus, the dying theory.  When I was growing up the word transgender didn't even exist.  And the idea of passing legislation for "men who wear women's clothes" (then known only as perverts) was unthinkable.

Things change and the overall trend over the centuries has been one of acceptance.  There's no reason to believe this trend won't continue, despite any setbacks.

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 25, 2009, 11:29:43 AM
No, I'm not expecting them to change their minds.  But they will one day die.

When looking at the demographics, the younger you are, the more open you are to LGBT issues.  So thus, the dying theory.  When I was growing up the word transgender didn't even exist.  And the idea of passing legislation for "men who wear women's clothes" (then known only as perverts) was unthinkable.

Things change and the overall trend over the centuries has been one of acceptance.  There's no reason to believe this trend won't continue, despite any setbacks.

I agree and am very comforted by the trend but don't ignore the fact that the Christian movement amongst the young is being revitalized. Also consider what age group is actually doing hate crimes against LBGT people? It's not the older set. No, it is typically men in their twenties.

My concern centers around what may happen if the economy/climate continues to wreak havoc on the USA.  Ignorant people and let's face it, most people can't even find England on a globe, are easily swayed by even lies that come from iconoclasts like Palin. Some pseudo fascist could come into power because s/he taps into homophobic fear and blames the calamity on LBGT as some form of God's wrath.

Maggie

Quote from: Laura Hope on November 25, 2009, 01:08:38 AM
I don't like the politicization of the church at all, but the era of the Christian Culture is not one that is coming in the future but is a relic of a past that's fading in the rearview.

I agree Laura, but all that can be done to make sure they're driving as fast as possible in that direction with no obstructions should be done.

Quote from: Maggie Kay on November 25, 2009, 11:47:52 AM
I agree and am very comforted by the trend but don't ignore the fact that the Christian movement amongst the young is being revitalized. Also consider what age group is actually doing hate crimes against LBGT people? It's not the older set. No, it is typically men in their twenties.

And most of those young have been influenced by some old geezer with a life-time hate agenda. Young people, usually with no mind or will of their own, always look for leaders with power messages.

SusanKG

Quote from: Maggie Kay on November 25, 2009, 11:47:52 AMAlso consider what age group is actually doing hate crimes against LBGT people? It's not the older set. No, it is typically men in their twenties.

Yes, young men are often sent out to fight wars they don't understand.  Imagine a world where we teach our young acceptance.  No one race is superior.  No one religion is superior.  No one country is superior.

This would be a world where we see beauty in acceptance and understand and appreciate its value.

"Whatever the mind can believe and conceive, it can achieve."

QuoteAlso consider what age group is actually doing hate crimes against LBGT people? It's not the older set. No, it is typically men in their twenties.

Who are almost never hard-core practicing religionists of any stripe.

Fred Phelps needs to be bitch slapped (Excuse my language ladies) and I hope god smacks him when he dies for being an insult to him and spreading hate in his name. One day I want to marry a girl in a church, and I want to be declared Husband and wife, not life partners or that other nonsense. I want to be married in god's name and be able to live a life for him.

Quote from: Kentrie on October 12, 2010, 07:16:40 PM
Fred Phelps needs to be bitch slapped (Excuse my language ladies) and I hope god smacks him when he dies for being an insult to him and spreading hate in his name. One day I want to marry a girl in a church, and I want to be declared Husband and wife, not life partners or that other nonsense. I want to be married in god's name and be able to live a life for him.

From what I've seen of him, Phelps is most likely mentally unstable - in the clinical sense.

And it seems you are young enough so you will one day be able to marry just as you described.  No matter how hard the "traditionalists" (another word for those who fear change) try, progress will continue.  History has proven that over and over.

One constant about supremacists is the hatred and vitriole they spew to uninformed and unknowing people. They are aware of this and use it to thier advantage. Ethnic cleansing goes along the same lines.

I didn't what what transgender was until it was revealed to me. This was five years ago. I researched trangender people on the 'net throughout history. One constant I found is that the church (RCC in particular) was a vehicle behind the murders of many transgender people.  I'm not tarring the whole church, but the hierarchy who implement and foment much of the hatred and violence.

Gennee