A pair of loaded Apache gunships have been circling above town off and on most of the day. For those unfamiliar with those things, they are essentially flying tanks. I was watching them earlier and having seen them in action before, let me tell you, you're glad they are on our side believe me. I don't know what they were doing, probably practicing targeting stuff. Heh. I wonder how many times I've been driving through the desert and had a Hellfire missle locked on me, lol.

Anyway I got to thinking about that whole world and military culture.. I think it would be good for a lot of people in terms of self discovery and discipline, in turn creating a healthier society and nation. So, if you could serve in your nations military as a member of your target gender, without discrimination, would you? Lots of people talk the talk, but not as many can walk the walk, and often times military service is looked down upon by this crowd...so I'm interested in thoughts on this.

If you did serve, do you feel like you took anything positive away from the experience? We all tend to focus on the obvious gender trauma, and that's a gimme. Do you think your'e a better person than you were before for having that experience?

In a word: yes. 

I was pretty messed up when I was drafted during Viet Nam.  My social life stank.  I had no direction to my life.  My self-esteem wasn't all that wonderful.  The Army helped me some but didn't help me in a number of other ways.  I learned some social skills just because we were all stuck together and had no one else.  I also learned a number of things about society because it was a microcosm of the larger society – small enough that I could see the workings.

I got out for a while but was flailing around in civilian life, still not sure what I wanted to do with my life.  I thought working as an electrician would suit me but couldn't get an apprenticeship because I already had a college degree (and looked like a college nerd and didn't understand life from a tradesman's viewpoint).  I went into another service to get some practical training.  (The Army only taught me to kill people – not a lot of job opportunity in civilian life.)

Once I was in and had gotten some training, I found it had the parts I liked about the Army – the camaraderie, the respect, the job security, a certain amount of adventure – without most of the things I didn't like – the capriciousness of the management, the in-fighting among the middle ranks, the incompetence of the senior officers.  So I stayed for another 21 years and grew into myself.

About halfway through, I seriously looked into transitioning.  I'm almost certain I would have been kicked out, but I dreamed of wearing the cute women's uniform and continuing my career.  I didn't transition for a number of reasons and managed to suppress my GID pretty well for another ten years.

It certainly isn't for everyone, but it helped me finally grow up.  I don't know what is the services' policies are on transsexuals, but I would guess they are not accepting of us on active duty.  I know they have no problem with us once we retire, though.

Happy for the opportunities provided me,
Kate

Like Kate I was young during the Viet Nam era.  And I volunteered for both the Army and the Navy.  Unfortunately I was finally classified 4F in the end.

If I was younger, stronger and born female I would volunteer again.  But now I am older, weaker and still in transition.  And then there is the whole back thing to deal with.



Janet

Let me begin by asking you two questions.

ONE - Directly in front of you is a button.  Pushing it will launch a large nuclear weapon that will directly hit in the center of a city of over one million people.  Can you push that button?

Without hesitation, second-thoughts, or any reservations, can you push it?

And that's not some hypothetical, one of my best buds from HS wound up going through the Air Force Academy and was a commander of a Titan II missile launch facility.  And I know he would have pushed that button.

TWO - In front of you is some, hell, kid - 18 or 19 years old, tops.  Can you walk up behind them, pull out your K-Bar knife and slice their throat from ear to ear?

Yeah, I know that's not what everyone in the military does, most are just clerks and supply people.  But their entire existence is only to support those two above listed activities and all that comes in-between.

But, the alpha/omega of the military is to kill people who are either a) in the way, or b) not doing what you want, or c) a threat.  Everything is geared to that end. 

I think the problems that many people have with the military, and a lot of people in here sure would, is that you conform to military culture, it will not budge a fraction of an inch for you.  Lot's of people have trouble with that.  Lot's of people also have trouble with the military organization deal.  Rank is rank, and anyone of a higher rank, no matter how dumb they are, can order you about, and your only response is "Sir, yes sir!" 

Not at all. While quite capable of being that violent, I would rather not be part of it. I don't want to kill other humans.

I feel like I would become part of a problem, the problem of people willing to kill eachother over rights to resources or because of differences in ideology. I want no part of it.

I'll take Sir, Yes Sir! over hiel hitler any day of the week.

Learning to be capable of doing the things Tekla described and living through it can imbue one with a self confidence that is hard to learn otherwise. I don't wholly agree with the ideology argument, even having been a "racketeer for capitalism". There are other people who would happily take what we have and our "freedoms" if they weren't protected by nuclear missles and throat cutting guys.

Quoteeither a) in the way, or b) not doing what you want, or c) a threat. 

interesting ordering of mandates   

Quote from: tekla on November 25, 2009, 08:46:00 PM
Let me begin by asking you two questions.

ONE - Directly in front of you is a button.  Pushing it will launch a large nuclear weapon that will directly hit in the center of a city of over one million people.  Can you push that button?

TWO - In front of you is some, hell, kid - 18 or 19 years old, tops.  Can you walk up behind them, pull out your K-Bar knife and slice their throat from ear to ear?

Sorry, Tekla, but I think it is unfair to pose questions like this to someone living with their parents or at school, with no military training or experience (or indoctrination), and no understanding of the military.  I would be very wary of any 20 year-old civilian who could answer yes to either question, but I would trust a military person who could say yes because I would assume they knew the why and wherefore and have some understanding of life-threatening situations.

If you pay taxes you support the military just as the clerks and supply people do.  If you pay taxes and don't vote, you are more culpable.  If you refuse to pay your taxes or vote and put your head in the sand, you are yet more culpable.

The question wasn't about putting on a uniform making you a killer.  The question was if you served in the military, do you think you came away with anything positive.

- Kate

Learning to be capable of doing the things Tekla described and living through it can imbue one with a self confidence that is hard to learn otherwise.

Or it could lead to a lifetime of nightmares and PTSD, with alcohol and drug problems as a bonus.  Either outcome can, and has happened.

interesting ordering of mandates
I just took them in the order that they seem to have historically been used for by volume.

If you do not reside in the US, then you can say what you will. If you do reside in the US, THANK A VETERAN for the freedom to hide behind a keyboard!

I absolutely would serve.  In fact, if I would've been five or ten years younger when 9/11 took place, I would have strongly considered enlisting.  Although I never served in the military, I am a former police officer and had no problem taking care of myself and placing my life on the line for others. 

I'd like to think I could, but the truth is I feel guilty about killing the moths that like to fly around my computer screen.  I used to be vegetarian for similar reasons (age 9 to 13), but I was underweight so I had to stop (plus, steak tastes really good).

Doesn't stop me from playing war games on my computer though -- probably the only primarily masculine thing I do in my life...

QuoteOr it could lead to a lifetime of nightmares and PTSD, with alcohol and drug problems as a bonus.  Either outcome can, and has happened.

A fair enough observation. I'm still trying to make my peace with my service. I don't have any issues from it aside from a tendancy to bite off more than I can chew. I can't say I'm a better person for it, but I can't imagine myself and my world view without that particular set of experiences.

For all the people I know its been the most positive thing in their lives, but then again the only enlisted person I know is my little brother.  Everyone else is an officer and that's a different deal.

I would probably have to answer no to both of Tekla's hypotheticals, at least at present. Considering I am actually a 20-something civilian, it's not so surprising...

I am not really okay with dying. Perhaps for some grand, worthy cause; but considering how often 'grand, worthy cause' turns out to be 'pointless and bloody waste of life', I'd be skeptical at present.

I also have trouble with the idea of killing things. Basically I would only go that far if:
- I'm protecting something/someone important to me. (Self-defense falls under this; I like myself. )
- It will stop still greater death that would occur otherwise. I would launch the nuke at the city if they had ten nukes in production there that would be fired immediately upon completion, for example. One million faceless strangers vs. ten million faceless strangers. Bigger number wins.
- I completely lose my embarrassingly intact childhood innocence.    Held in check by this innocent, idealistic kid is a ruthlessly analytical person, which surprises a lot of people. If everyone I care about is dead, I'd probably run on a purely logical cost-benefit system. But that's probably not what the military wants; I'd be more of an assassin-type, I guess.

But as I said, I'm an idealistic twenty-something civilian, with no real interest in being ordered about. So what would I know?

Count me in!

I think that testing yourself physically and mentally is the best thing anyone can do! I also think that a little hard work would do a lot of people some good

I've never served but I'd like to think I am disciplined. I totally admire people who are in the military. My sister, dad, and grandpa served and so have several of my relatives. It would just be another job to me. Of course I wouldn't be doing it for career but just to make enough money to get me to the next step in my journey

If the military is one thing, for the vast majority of people in it, its NOT going to be another job to me.

Nor, unless you are a lifer with a full retirement package, will you walk out of there with much money.  Many enlisted persons with families qualify for food stamps.

Quote from: tekla on November 25, 2009, 11:05:37 PM
If the military is one thing, for the vast majority of people in it, its NOT going to be another job to me.

Nor, unless you are a lifer with a full retirement package, will you walk out of there with much money.  Many enlisted persons with families qualify for food stamps.

& what pray God would they do without your grand wit & knowledge of the world?

"Another job to me" is something that I've chosen to do and am willing to finish! I don't take this lightly and regardless of all the morality involved with enlistment and the life that comes with it.

I'd still serve if I had a choice.

If I didn't make enough money I'd serve the time I've enlisted for and do what I'm doing now. I'm in school and have plans.

i served as my non-prefered gender and i have a problem with teklas first scenario but not the second the reason being i do not think a nuclear solution is ever a solution but on his second if i had to kill someone i would and did in the first gulf war. i rationalize this in because the person i had to kill would have killed me..and would kill everything i care about if he had the oppertunity so i denied him that oppertunity PTSD dont have it feel bad for those who do but it is a fact of war some individuals cant handle the stress of combat some people cant handle the stress of getting robbed and devolop PTSD it is what it is. my respect for all my brothers and sisters who step in the line of fire for those who can't, wont or hate those who do. when i joined i realized i could die in some piece of crap third world dump or the main street of usa and i agreed to do so to protect or expand our interests period end of my soap box
jessica