In the last 2+ weeks i have had more thrills out and about that i could have imagined, while doing almost nothing remarkable - just living.

But since I went into this essentially full time mode, the pressure at home has been dialed up to 11. Whether it's well meaning relatives telling me to "put my pants on" (she's a sweetheart, but she thinks she's thinking of what's best for my family)...

or in-laws who stand a 24 hour watch waiting for her call to be rescued from "this mess"...

or her repeating the same discussion every night that veers wildly from "I don't see how we can make it" to "it'll all work out" and from "I didn't marry you for a sister" to "if we're going to be roommates we can take the rings off" (which is to say, a lot of conflicting and contradictory statements and signals within the same conversation)...

or the most recent tactic of saying "I ask the kids how they felt and they don't like it either" (they won't talk to me about it) and "they need a daddy, you are taking their daddy away from them"...

it all makes me think of myself as an escapee who's not really and truely free because the bloodhounds can be heard in the distance.

It's like being a runaway slave - even though I'm "free"...I keep thinking the bounty hunter is just around the next corner, ready to put the chains back on.

What's worse, I can feel myself tiring of the pursuit....my knees getting weak. Feeling the temptation to just lie down in the ditch and let them find me. Drag me back to the cell. Worse, throw me in "the hole" for even attempting escape (i.e. go through life knowing everyone not only knows what's inside, but knows I'm so weak i can't even follow through on such a blatant coming out)

the main argument I'm making to her now is that even if she thinks i broke it, the peices don;t go together anymore - I might have been able to muddle through the next 20 years never knowing how good this feels - but now i know.

she and the rest of them would certainly have gone on thinking I was a rather drab and unremarkable little man of no accomplishment - but now they know I'm a "freak" (in their view) and they can't "unknow" that. The only thing worse is to see me give up and quit because it's too hard (all the while telling me what a noble deed it was to "put my family first")

I don't fear anything that this coming out brings my way, whether it's being killed by a hater or rejected by everyone I know - except one thing. I fear discrediting everything I've accomplished so far by accepting defeat and de-transitioning.

I'm not sure how long I could keep getting up n the mornings if I did that.

But....I can hear them...and my legs are getting very tired.

I'm very, very sorry, but... NO WHITE PERSON FROM THE SOUTH can ever compare themselves to a runaway slave.  For this simple reason.  Slaves never had a choice in any of that, you did.

While Tekla's delivery can be quite tackless and crass

But for sure, easy to understand - which, by the way, is the hallmark of good writing - tell me dear.  After you lied to her, and lied to her, and lied to her again, and again, and again.  Exactly how many more lies did you expect her to stick around for?

I have no intention of either a) beating anyone up, or b) telling people how much of their life is based on a lie.  I only worry about those you lie to.

Quote from: tekla on November 25, 2009, 01:42:43 AM
I'm very, very sorry, but... NO WHITE PERSON FROM THE SOUTH can ever compare themselves to a runaway slave.  For this simple reason.  Slaves never had a choice in any of that, you did.

it's called an analogy.

And no person of any color anywhere who's not been a slave can compare themselves to anyone who has in a literal sense.

(Not all slaveholders were white southerners in America and not all slaves are or were black)

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Post Merge: November 25, 2009, 10:00:25 AM

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Quote from: heatherrose on November 25, 2009, 02:21:34 AM

I know exactly how you feel, I have been in the same exact place you
now find yourself. Even after my ex told me we were done as a couple, I
still held out hope that some how everything was going to stay the same,
"Hey I'm still the same person, just packaged differently." Well, that's what
I thought anyway. Four years later, EVERYTHING is different, including me.
While Tekla's delivery can be quite tackless and crass, you ARE faced
with a choice and I am not going to just pat you on the back and say it's
going to be ok, like I did to myself four years ago. The likelihood is that in
the near future, you are going to see yourself faced with having to make
a choice and I am sure that you have a good idea what your options are
going to be. Either way it WILL be extremely painful. A friend a long time
ago a friend of mine told me, "You can not force Heather to live TMW's
life." My heart goes out to you and you know where to come to cry.

Too be very clear, I'm prepared to deal with the pain of losing her - what scares me is the pain of HURTING her.

If I could walk away today and know she'd have a happy and fullfilling future I'd go.

Laura Hope, do you really expected something else?

What your therapist says, in this moments is when having one helps.

QuoteIf I could walk away today and know she'd have a happy and fullfilling future I'd go.

Laura, this is a very salient point. I could have placed myself in it's context only a short time ago. But, there are so many variables in these situations it's not really possible to be so clear. And, I feel that's what keeps some of us from doing just that; following our hearts.

It's obvious you really do want to keep your family together. Which is more important to you? Keeping your family together or being yourself; your pride or your freedom? These are hard questions to offer an answer to because they are painful questions that involve making a choice. Ultimately, that answer is known inside yourself. Allowing yourself to reach it is sometimes pleasant to no one. Not even you.

It appears you are at a crossroads in your journey, Laura. It's also my perspective that you have the strength to make the correct decision for you. Whatever that may be, make it work the best you can. Keep your soul strong and though there may be others who would be detractors, let them say what they will and pay them no mind.

It does sound as though there is some measure of hope in what your wife is saying. I know those wavering comments all to well. As I am sure many others here do also. The doubting comments are surely not what "we" are wanting to hear, yet, they are part of the process. Given enough time, things could work out for both of you to be happy in this. I'll stay hopeful for you, Laura.


Dawn     

I agree the slave thing is a bad analogy, your'e being melodramatic and nobody is going to take that seriously in person.

Quoteor her repeating the same discussion every night that veers wildly from "I don't see how we can make it" to "it'll all work out" and from "I didn't marry you for a sister" to "if we're going to be roommates we can take the rings off"

There's a lot of pain in her words isn't there?

Look, your'e going to destroy these peoples lives. You know it as well as we do and so do they. So just do it and get it over with or knock it off. It's selfish of you to sit in between like this, picking the band-aid off one hair at a time. At this point it sounds like it will be a relief for them anyway. Look at it from your wife's point of view: Her chronically unemployed husband who can barely pay the utility bills has started dressing like a woman and parading around town. I'll bet she doesn't see the recession, or your being trans, and even if she does it doesn't change the equation any. Her future isn't your business, it's hers.

QuoteI'm prepared to deal with the pain of losing her - what scares me is the pain of HURTING her.

I don't think this is the case, the other stars don't line up. What are you really afraid of? I think you need to decide what you're doing, make a plan of immediate action and stick with it. Right or wrong, fair or unfair your actions are affecting other human beings who you profess to care about, so start acting like it.

Laura,
Being in somewhat a similar position but farther down the road, I can say that transitioning in this environment is excruciating. I never expected to see the degree of hurtful reactions when I started. I also caved in several times and did things the family's way only to crash and burn emotionally. I even thought I could do what they wanted for years but eventually, I got convinced that I could not function unless I transitioned. So, I did and took all the shots that came my way. I too grieved at the pain my transition caused to my family and still do.

I looked at transition as a last resort. I was willing to give up my identity, my desires and my life for my family and did so until it became impossible to go on. Only then, did my family see at some level that I didn't have a choice but they still didn't want it to be true. They hoped and tried to cajole, manipulate or cry over my transition. I had to do it knowing that it was best for us all.  I firmly believe that had I committed suicide, which was where I was heading, that the trauma to them would have been far worse.

You have a hard road ahead. If you are were I was, you will be in this pressure cooker for some time and I hate to say it but, it will probably get worse at every step you take to be yourself.

I think that transitioning is about the hardest thing a person can do. Late transitioners have a lifetime of people who make it much worse. Even if they love us.

I have no answers or ways to make it come out all right.  Sometimes the cure isn't without massive downsides. I wish you the very best as you and your family struggle to find a way to get through.

Maggie

Well, I thought the runaway prisoner analogy is pretty good.  (OK, so I changed it for more modern times.)  I've had one of the easiest transitions on record but it still has been hard and, at times, discouraging.  During those times I've come here to Susan's for support and usually received it.  I have been very lucky.

Laura, we each have different situations and needs.  I am not in your situation, but once I started I couldn't turn back.  I grew tremendously once released from the cage and so would no longer fit back into it.  I have never been suicidal about being TG, but I remember telling my therapist that I would have to kill myself if forced to go back.  I wasn't threatening, just telling her the way it was (and is).

Quote from: Laura Hope on November 25, 2009, 01:35:09 AM
I don't fear anything that this coming out brings my way, whether it's being killed by a hater or rejected by everyone I know - except one thing. I fear discrediting everything I've accomplished so far by accepting defeat and de-transitioning.

I can't tell you what to do, Laura.  My spouse is dead, my child grown, my family reluctantly accepting.  I have no idea whether you and your wife will be able to work things out.  One of the problems I see is that there always seems to be some hope that it will work out but it never does.  Only you (or she) can decide that enough is enough. 

When my son-in-law was an out-of-control drunk, my daughter had a very hard time leaving him because she always hoped it would get better.  Well, it got better, but only after she left him.  At some point you either have to **** or get off the pot.  That's easy for those of us to say off in distant cyberspace, but much, much harder for the people living through it.  (I really know that.)

Are you able to get counseling, dear?

*long, steady, energy-giving hug*
Kate

Quote from: Zelane on November 25, 2009, 10:51:10 AM
Laura Hope, do you really expected something else?

What your therapist says, in this moments is when having one helps.

Is it really necessary that I must have expected something different in order to be troubled as it comes to pass?

I didn't expect anything different from her family - unless I expected an every more agressive attempt to part us

I didn't expect anything different from the preacher man - unless I expected him to knock on my door and try to "talk sense into me"

As for what I expected from my wife - in some ways this is just what I expected, in other ways not so much.

I DID have reason to believe it had the potential to have gone somewhat better (in fact, it still does if we make it to the point where she gives up hope of getting me to de-transition) - she has certain traits, qualities or characteristics if you will, which lend themselves readily to giving up her ideal concept in order to see the one she loves be happy, I've seen her do so before on large and small scales.

I also had some reason to believe that she had become more open minded on....unconventional lifestyles as it were...in the last few years which was a reason for cautious optimism.

but no, I can't say I just expected her to cheerfully say "whatever makes you happy dear" and take it with a smile.

but again, it's not necessary for me to have had wrong-headed expectations in order to be troubled at what comes to pass.

Then if you already know all that. Why arent you moving on? And with that I mean to separate and fulfill your life in a different path than her.

There is no love there just an attachment, and even if you still "love" her. Whats the point in that? Dont regret what its been done, look straight, think ahead and be happy.

Lost that encumbrance.

Quote from: Becca on November 25, 2009, 12:16:29 PM
I agree the slave thing is a bad analogy, your'e being melodramatic and nobody is going to take that seriously in person.

So think of it as escaping from prison - or a kidnapper - rather than getting distracted over an unimportant detail

Quote
There's a lot of pain in her words isn't there?

Look, your'e going to destroy these peoples lives. You know it as well as we do and so do they.

I "know" no such thing. there are women posting on this very board who's marriage came through the fires and the couple remained intact and in love, if under a different circumstance.

The axiom "be prepared to lose everything" is NOT the same thing as "you WILL lose everything" We have sisters here who prove otherwise.

No one knows in the midst of the pain how the will come out the other side. for instance, when a child in a family dies, the parents are always in tremendous heartbreak for years mourning that child. SOME couples can't recover and divorce, SOME stay together and come out the other side and make peace with the situation.

But in the middle of the mourning, neither you nor they can say which couple is which.

It is, frankly, a bit arrogant to suggest it's a foregone conclusion. Perhaps you are attempting a "tough love" thing in order to suggest I cut it off now. That might even be a good bit of advice. but the statement is nontheless nothing but speculation.

Quote
So just do it and get it over with or knock it off. It's selfish of you to sit in between like this, picking the band-aid off one hair at a time. At this point it sounds like it will be a relief for them anyway.

Then I am being uncler, or either you are reading into what I've described.

What is at work here is being cautious to not do (again) something that cannot be taken back until everyone is agreed it's the thing to do.

Just a couple of days ago I suggested to her that after Christmas perhaps I should pack a bag and go to my mom's for a few weeks so she could see if a separation suited her and she told me quite specifically that that defeated the whole purpose of her trying to maintain the family unit for the sake of the boys.

For me to "yank the band-aid off" now in spite of her opinion would only further alienate her and further reinforce the notion that my main goal is to get rid of them because I don't care about them.

YOU may know, in your wisdom, that she'd be better off if she thought that, but I'm operating from the point of view that if I tell her (honestly) that it's her call, then I will not help anyone by making the call myself anyway.

Quote
Look at it from your wife's point of view: Her chronically unemployed husband who can barely pay the utility bills has started dressing like a woman and parading around town. I'll bet she doesn't see the recession, or your being trans, and even if she does it doesn't change the equation any. Her future isn't your business, it's hers.

Wow. Nice. I think I'll leave that one alone, no good can come from posting a reaction to it.

Quote
I don't think this is the case, the other stars don't line up. What are you really afraid of? I think you need to decide what you're doing, make a plan of immediate action and stick with it. Right or wrong, fair or unfair your actions are affecting other human beings who you profess to care about, so start acting like it.

Um...yeah...Ok.

Noted and logged.

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Post Merge: November 25, 2009, 11:25:30 PM

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Quote from: Zelane on November 25, 2009, 11:18:18 PM
Then if you already know all that. Why arent you moving on?

That which is done in haste, cannot be undone. As I mentioned above, other relationships HAVE survived through this kind of pain and found a place of peace.

I think it would be error to ASSUME that because it is painful now it must die.

Especially under the circumstances. when it gets to the place where she says, without contridiction, that she will not have me in her home or in her life as a woman, yet even then won't come out and say I should leave, then it will be on me to leave. but as long as she is saying as often "i want us to stay together and not seperate" as she is "I don't know how we can stay together" I personally don't think it's on me to make the call yet.

I think there's a misunderstanding about the purpose of this thread. it wasn't a "tell me how to fix this" question.

rather, it was simply a bloggish kind of venting of a train of thought in my head....an outlet for emotions that need an outlet.

A place to commiserate, not be schooled.

Staying together for the sake of the kids doesn't statistically work. It's a cop out and everybody who does it knows it.

I don't do tough love, that was just my honest asessment based on what I've read. I've been known to be wrong, it's just one persons opinion 

Hang in there darling.

I "know" no such thing. there are women posting on this very board who's marriage came through the fires and the couple remained intact and in love, if under a different circumstance.

I was talking to a very pretty young lady a few weeks ago. She grew up just down the road from you in Meridian.  Next month she is turning 21.  She is already a self-made millionaire, and may well be a multimillionaire before she is 22 or 23.  So, such things do happen.  But just because it happened to her, just because there is a young lady like that, does not mean its going to happen to everyone.

I think those 'happy' couples who went through this and stayed together have something in common with Hayley Williams in that they are both exceptions to the rule, and not the average case.

You have to plan for the worst, and when it perhaps doesn't happen, then you can be pleasantly surprised. 

Quote
I think those 'happy' couples who went through this and stayed together have something in common with Hayley Williams in that they are both exceptions to the rule, and not the average case.

Oh my yes, I'd absolutely agree with that. I'm not playing the Powerball by delaying a seperation, but I am definitely drawing to an inside straight (at least)

QuoteYou have to plan for the worst, and when it perhaps doesn't happen, then you can be pleasantly surprised.

I have a "plan for the worst" in the sense of what happens if we split (to the extent that finances or whatever allow...kind of a multiple-option set of plans really)

I don't have a "plan for the worst" in terms of detransitioning because I frankly think that I'd pretty much just give up and be useless which is why, in the long run, it's better for her that I leave even if she doesn't realize it at the time - but that leaving only comes if/when she gives me the ultimatum to repress or get out.

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Post Merge: November 26, 2009, 12:48:09 AM

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QuoteStaying together for the sake of the kids doesn't statistically work. It's a cop out and everybody who does it knows it.

In general terms, I agree. if I "stayed for the kids" it would only be if we settled into a respectful and "no-drama" relationship.
Usually when "staying for the kids" doesn't work it's because the two who stay together are in constant stress and conflict. If I stayed here for another year(ish) and we stayed in constant stress and conflict, I'd probably make the decision for her.

But knowing the situation as I do, I believe there is a legitimate possibility that - if there is no ultimatum - that we could settle into an amicable "roommates" situation which would, I believe, be better for the kids than me moving out.

Quote
I don't do tough love, that was just my honest asessment based on what I've read.

Probably then I was not communicating the circumstances as well as I should have.

Quote from: Laura Hope on November 26, 2009, 12:44:05 AM


I don't have a "plan for the worst" in terms of detransitioning because I frankly think that I'd pretty much just give up and be useless which is why, in the long run, it's better for her that I leave even if she doesn't realize it at the time - but that leaving only comes if/when she gives me the ultimatum to repress or get out.

Why does she have to give an ultimatum if shes saying you are only staying together for the sake of the kids perhaps your self deluding in thinking their will be some kind of loving relationship after its done i have to agree with becca i think your delaying the inevitable in the hope that she will come around
jessica

Well, Laura, once again I seem to be in the minority.  I really feel for you.  I hope you can work it all out - whatever that means.  You have a tough road for many reasons, far tougher than mine and probably tougher than many who offer you advice. 

Being in limbo is tough.  There is a tendency to make a decision - any decision - that will get you out of it, but usually if you can stick it out and work through it the right decision will become clear.  It is the process of getting there that is so frustrating, though.

You have always sounded like a very reasonable person, well-grounded despite our common problem.  You have to trust to your own judgement, especially since it has always seemed to be fairly sound.  You are the only one of us who knows your situation really well.  As long as you can see it with some clarity, you will make the right decisions for you.

Good luck, dear. 

- Kate