Yes, there are relationships that do survive transition. Danielle and I are hoping to be one of those. However, I do NOT see a key factor in your relationship that exists in mine (and others that have "survived"). I do not see your spouse making one iota of effort to *try* to accept things. No therapy, no discussions (arguments are NOT discussions), no discussions of middle grounds. Nothing. That is not the way a relationship works.

I would tend to agree with the person who said that all your wife sees is you dressing up like a woman and parading around town. I can totally see where that reaction is coming from and how it would lead to your wife's rather antagonistic reactions. You're worried about hurting your wife? I can tell you that you *are* hurting her right now. You've totally turned her life upside down and are wondering why she's not happy?

Transition for the spouse is a much more "up front" process. By the time you come out to them, you've already dealt with the knowledge for years. For your wife, this just popped up out of nowhere. Speaking from experience, we have a lot of emotional, mental, and fact processing to do up front. We don't get the "benefit" of "dealing with this for years". There are a lot of things your wife needs to process - being perceived as a lesbian, what will family/children/coworkers/random strangers think, feelings of being 'lied' to or misled by you, seeing your transition as an 'attack' on her femininity/motherhood identity, what's going to happen next, fears about medications/surgery/change as a whole, where is the money coming from, and stuff that I probably can't think of. Your wife needs to make peace with most of this up front. Been there, done that. Twice in fact.

This is where therapy and some of those compromises come in. Therapy is going to be key because you and your wife need to relearn how to communicate. The fact that you keep circling around the same argument without progress says you have communication issues. Therapy is going to help figure out where the problems are. Therapy is also going to give you and your wife a safe place to talk. Danielle and I did about 3-4 couples sessions and since then we've gone seperately. Why? Because my transition issues aren't the same as Dani's.

I know that once you decide you need to transition, it's like opening the starting gate on a horse race. You want to go as fast as you possibly can.  Well, for us spouses, what you see as a snail's pace is still light speed to us. Danielle has waited on a lot of things for me, because she wants us to succeed. She waited an entire year before starting HRT, because I needed time. She waited to talk to me about things until I was ready. We spent an entire year repairing our relationship before proceeding with transition stuff. She's recently asked me if I was comfortable with her increasing her HRT dosage the next time she sees her doctor. Danielle's made a *lot* of compromises for me in her transition. I in turn have promised that I will make honest efforts to progress. And now we have an understanding that if I ask her to wait, it is not because I do not want her to transition or I want her to stop. It is because I need more time to deal with my own demons, and she knows that she will be able to continue.

I'm trying to give you a bit of perspective into what your wife is going through here. Some of it you probably didn't want to hear, but I do hope that perhaps it can give you some pointers on starting discussions. Transition doesn't necessarily mean the end of a relationship, but both sides do have to work at the relationship. I, for one, believe Dani's transition has helped our marriage.

If you (or your wife, if she'd like to correspond) have specific questions, feel free to ask or PM me. I'm on chat but mostly evenings. Dani and ping me if I'm gaming and you have questions. About the only subject I can't be much help on is how kids will take it. Our cat doesn't care as long as she gets fed and skritchies ;P

WR

I'm pretty much in agreement with Kate.  I feel your pain and many here do as we have been in similar circumstances.

Trying to work it out and bring your spouse along is wonderful, but both parties have to agree.  You could compromise on timeframes, but not goals.  Having her acknowledge that you must change would be a good first step.

As you know so many relationships dissolve because of this.  It takes real commitment to work through the issues of transition that affect the trans person and everyone in their life.  Family counselling can be very valuable in this regard.

Please know that we are all here for you and this is really a place to vent and commiserate.  And get advice as you have already found out...

-Sandy( )

Quote from: K8 on November 26, 2009, 08:21:35 AM
Well, Laura, once again I seem to be in the minority.  I really feel for you.  I hope you can work it all out - whatever that means.  You have a tough road for many reasons, far tougher than mine and probably tougher than many who offer you advice. 

Being in limbo is tough.  There is a tendency to make a decision - any decision - that will get you out of it, but usually if you can stick it out and work through it the right decision will become clear.  It is the process of getting there that is so frustrating, though.

You have always sounded like a very reasonable person, well-grounded despite our common problem.  You have to trust to your own judgement, especially since it has always seemed to be fairly sound.  You are the only one of us who knows your situation really well.  As long as you can see it with some clarity, you will make the right decisions for you.

Good luck, dear. 

- Kate

That bolded part is exactly the sort of insight I value so much in your posts.

Thanks for that. You are a blessing to me.

After reading your responses to the replies here I can see a few things about you. Forgive my bluntness:

You are desperately grasping and hanging onto that relationship. Not only that you are being avoiding your responsibility into matters. You implied you are waiting for your wife to react and to literally throw you out.

Try to think of how she IS feeling. Her husband is changing into something she didnt agreed to marry. And while some marriages DO survive I dont think yours would (at least if things continue the way they are) You need to act and move away from your tiny comfort zone and work things out with her IF you truly want to stay together.

Therapy its a must but again you seem to be letting all things to her. And if you arent then lose all hope because if she isnt willing to see things in another light, she wont ever accept your change with her next to you.


Your reactions are simply saying: I dont know what to do or think and I wont lift a finger to create more pain for me. And with that you are just looking for EXCUSES.

Take responsibility of your actions. You wanted to transition then face the consequences.


Sorry for the harshness and those are my last words on this topic. Take them as you wish and good luck Laura, I hope things really go well.

Quote from: Windrider on November 26, 2009, 09:23:42 AM
Yes, there are relationships that do survive transition. Danielle and I are hoping to be one of those. However, I do NOT see a key factor in your relationship that exists in mine (and others that have "survived"). I do not see your spouse making one iota of effort to *try* to accept things. No therapy, no discussions (arguments are NOT discussions), no discussions of middle grounds. Nothing. That is not the way a relationship works.

the reason I use the word "argument" and not discussions is not because they are stereotypical shouting matches - they are not. they are discussions in every sense EXCEPT in this key regard - they always start and end with the reality that it's a "no win scenario"

She CAN'T (so she believes) be content to adjust to the new reality and be reasonably happy (as one adjusts to a death of a spouse and moves on, for instance)

And I CAN'T (so I believe) give her back what she used to have.

So yes, they are discussions, but they are arguments in the sense that the two competing positions seem to have no easy resolution or middle ground.

As for therapy - she has (quite apart from our current situation) a real problem with going into Memphis. she HATES it. My therapist ask me yesterday if she would talk to her on the phone (which is something else that makes her uncomfortable - talking to a complete stranger on the phone) and she's considering it and I think, at some point, she will do so because she acknowledges she needs someone to talk to anyway and a therapist is someone she can trust not to have "a dog in the hunt" but it will just take some time for her to talk herself into it.

Quote
I would tend to agree with the person who said that all your wife sees is you dressing up like a woman and parading around town.

that's not an expression she has used, or alluded to. I believe she legitimately understands that this is not "dress up" but real identity issues. She hasn't said that much actually about what folks around town see - she doesn't like having to see it herself.

But a lot of the things she has expressed concern about (kids losing their daddy for instance) are not things which point to the "dressing up and parading around" paradigm.

QuoteI can totally see where that reaction is coming from and how it would lead to your wife's rather antagonistic reactions. You're worried about hurting your wife? I can tell you that you *are* hurting her right now.

Surely you are not under the impression that I'm unaware of that?

Quote
You've totally turned her life upside down and are wondering why she's not happy?

what EVER gave you the impression I'm WONDERING WHY?

I'm pretty much up to speed on how much she's hurting and why, and also about what it would take to attempt to remedy that.  Not only that, I have a firm grasp on the fact that it will probably get worse and why. I can't fathom why anyone would think I lack for knowledge or need this sort of thing explained to me.

furthermore, I wasn't taken by surprise by any of this. I was just venting about the conflicted feelings, not asking to have them explained.

Quote
Transition for the spouse is a much more "up front" process. By the time you come out to them, you've already dealt with the knowledge for years. For your wife, this just popped up out of nowhere. Speaking from experience, we have a lot of emotional, mental, and fact processing to do up front. We don't get the "benefit" of "dealing with this for years". There are a lot of things your wife needs to process - being perceived as a lesbian, what will family/children/coworkers/random strangers think, feelings of being 'lied' to or misled by you, seeing your transition as an 'attack' on her femininity/motherhood identity, what's going to happen next, fears about medications/surgery/change as a whole, where is the money coming from, and stuff that I probably can't think of. Your wife needs to make peace with most of this up front. Been there, done that. Twice in fact.

Right. I totally agree with (and have given a lot of consideration to) that. Please understand if I give the apperance of "taking offense" to your reply, I KNOW that you offer it with the best of intentions - but also please understand I'm NOT complaining about, or confused about, or ill-informed about her reactions and feelings. I have said repeatedly in this place and many more times than that that I PERFECTLY understand all those considerations and why she would feel as she does.

If she's surprised me at all it is in that she has worked so hard to try to tolerate me thus far.

To reiterate - the thread was simply supposed to be me venting about the emotional conflict that comes from knowing that easing my pain is causing her so much pain - knowing that someone IS going to be hurting no matter what road is chosen. There are not solutions for this reality, there are not answers which can be applied to fix things so no one hurts. But just because there's nothing out there which cures the pain doesn't mean somoene can't say from time to time "it hurts"

Quote
This is where therapy and some of those compromises come in. Therapy is going to be key because you and your wife need to relearn how to communicate. The fact that you keep circling around the same argument without progress says you have communication issues. Therapy is going to help figure out where the problems are. Therapy is also going to give you and your wife a safe place to talk. Danielle and I did about 3-4 couples sessions and since then we've gone seperately. Why? Because my transition issues aren't the same as Dani's.

I know that once you decide you need to transition, it's like opening the starting gate on a horse race. You want to go as fast as you possibly can.  Well, for us spouses, what you see as a snail's pace is still light speed to us. Danielle has waited on a lot of things for me, because she wants us to succeed. She waited an entire year before starting HRT, because I needed time. She waited to talk to me about things until I was ready. We spent an entire year repairing our relationship before proceeding with transition stuff. She's recently asked me if I was comfortable with her increasing her HRT dosage the next time she sees her doctor. Danielle's made a *lot* of compromises for me in her transition. I in turn have promised that I will make honest efforts to progress. And now we have an understanding that if I ask her to wait, it is not because I do not want her to transition or I want her to stop. It is because I need more time to deal with my own demons, and she knows that she will be able to continue.

I think this is all good advice and it's appreciated. The hump we have to get over here is the question of whether or not I'll give it up. I don't have any trouble  adjusting the PACE or the timing so long as the basic question of whether or not I'm going to do it at all is in the rear-view. it's the uncertainty, for both of us, that is more painful than i would like it to be for either of us.

Quote
I'm trying to give you a bit of perspective into what your wife is going through here. Some of it you probably didn't want to hear, but I do hope that perhaps it can give you some pointers on starting discussions.

I may be overly sensitive to the implication (unintended I'm sure) that i am obtuse to the issues she's trying to deal with. I have always had an irrational pet peeve about being told things I already know and that's my issue not yours.

That said, we have already discussed pretty much all the things you mentioned and I think I have a lot firmer grasp of why this is hard for her than she has of of what's going on in my head (she still labors under the illusion that this is more a "lifestyle choice" than an issue of identity because, I suppose, she was so strongly acculturated to believe that is what transsexualism is) - as i said above, the key issue that we "circle around" without resolving is the foundational point of whether or not I can continue or whether I must go back (or leave because I won't go back).

Once THAT point is settled firmly by one of three options:

a. I quit and put the mask back on
b. She accepts that i cannot quit and we resolve to rebuild our relationship in the new paradigm
c. I have to leave because neither of the first two will work

then everything else - timing and roles and so forth, can easily be worked out (it might not be easy for everyone but we are very good at that sort of "working things out" normally. Once we know where we are going, we have pretty good skills at agreeing how to get there)
That's not to say there won't be some pain and mourning along the way.

it's the "big question" that is the source of the tension right now.

Quote
Transition doesn't necessarily mean the end of a relationship, but both sides do have to work at the relationship. I, for one, believe Dani's transition has helped our marriage.

If you (or your wife, if she'd like to correspond) have specific questions, feel free to ask or PM me. I'm on chat but mostly evenings. Dani and ping me if I'm gaming and you have questions. About the only subject I can't be much help on is how kids will take it. Our cat doesn't care as long as she gets fed and skritchies ;P

WR

I'd LOVE for her to develop a support network of friends who have gone through this before - but she's always been very reluctant to develop on-line friends and connections.

One of the things I have tried to encourage her about more than anything is to get some perspective on the situation by hearing some other voices besides the echo chamber she's stuck in now of people who are basically telling her she's been wronged and I ought not to be doing this to her and so forth.

Hopefully over time I can get her to give some consideration to chats or e-mails or phone calls with the therapists and with people who can say with credibility "I know how you feel" - but I can't say for sure.

I pray that all works out, but if that were true then I would be with my ex.  It really depends on her.  If she can accept you as you, then the future is bright.  But I know different. 

I only can pray you get the best, Hon.



Janet

I am a new newbie. I just read Susan's rules before I read this series of posts. I was surprised at the levels of criticism and unasked for advice. I really appreciated the heartfelt original post by Laura, and her careful responses to all that followed. I agree with K8. Thank you for sharing your transition/growing pains. It helps to know what others go through.

I want to give as much compassion as I hope to receive.

Quote from: Kendall on November 26, 2009, 08:20:01 PM
I am a new newbie. I just read Susan's rules before I read this series of posts. I was surprised at the levels of criticism and unasked for advice. I really appreciated the heartfelt original post by Laura, and her careful responses to all that followed. I agree with K8. Thank you for sharing your transition/growing pains. It helps to know what others go through.

I want to give as much compassion as I hope to receive.

Good for you, Kendall .


Janet

As a moderator, I feel that I have to put my two cents' worth in here. (I guess it's more like two bits, after inflation.)

I can appreciate the plain dealers in the audience, even when the remarks are particularly unvarnished. I can appreciate differing perspectives and the occasional misunderstandings that come with written communication. I can appreciate that sometimes a mere vent will garner unwanted advice. But I cannot appreciate the antagonistic tone in some of these responses.

This is a support site. Most of us--and I include myself here, because I've had a few DUH moments--need reminding of this from time to time. Please do everything in your power to avoid antagonistic, confrontational, and/or accusatory remarks. Certainly we sometimes want to ask probing questions, but most of the time we should try to temper such responses with a modicum of warmth, friendliness, and supportiveness. (Well, maybe not Tekla, plain dealer extraordinaire.)

Laura Hope is going through a rough period in her life, and that is the most important issue here. She's obviously capable of holding her own (which I admire; I would have blown my top a long time ago), but please don't attack her or become aggressive. That's uncalled for.

Never much saw any benefit in supporting people by not telling them the truth.  And I know Laura is isolated, no TG groups, or TG people to know, all she has is this.  But in near 30 years of support/social/political work with TG persons, IRL, I've never seen a marriage make it through.  Sure, there are some, at least I have read of some on the web.  Just like my 20 year old millionaire - but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.  So I always council that one ought to plan for the worst and perhaps be surprised.

There is a bit of dialog from Lawrence of Arabia that has always haunted me.  Sherif Ali tell Lawrence: "A man can do whatever he wants, you said."
And Lawrence's reply is: "He can, but he can't want what he wants."

Whatever the other spouse wants I think, as Lawrence said, is beyond their control, much less our control.  Control at any rate is but an illusion anyway which I think is what Lawrence was saying.

And people who have been following this know that there is other underlying tensions.  I was very lucky to have been told at a very early point in my life that 'you either find a lifestyle to match your politics, beliefs and values, or you find politics, beliefs and values to match your lifestyle.'  And Laura is going through a lot of that confusion also, which I'm sure also spills into this, as its not just a physical change, but I bet Laura is moving away from a lot of the beliefs and values that she previously shared with this woman.

That happens to all sorts of couples, its not just TG issues in divorce court.  Sad perhaps.  But true.  And, though its often for the best.  Many people, myself included get together much too young, and the changes, both internal and external, move through our lives and take us in different directions and you wake up one day and its just not there anymore.  But most people get through it, get over it, get on with it and often find even more happiness in the second go round, or perhaps even the third.

Life finds a way after all.

Unlike some, while I usually have an opinion about most matters, I do not have the absolute truth and do not for a minute believe I do. I have and continue to refrain from jumping into this particular thread, except:

1. Laura.  Hopefully everyone understands the pain your situation creates, for you and for your wife. Not all of us have undergone all of this, but many if not most have. Love to you and your wife.

2. It's amazing how a new person can cut through all the &#@$.  Thanks Kendall.  And thanks Janet and Arch; adult supervision arrives.

SusanKG

Quote from: Kendall on November 26, 2009, 08:20:01 PM
I am a new newbie. I just read Susan's rules before I read this series of posts. I was surprised at the levels of criticism and unasked for advice. I really appreciated the heartfelt original post by Laura, and her careful responses to all that followed. I agree with K8. Thank you for sharing your transition/growing pains. It helps to know what others go through.

I want to give as much compassion as I hope to receive.

thanks for that!

(((Kendall)))

Perhaps, then, the adults could chime in with their sage advice about how they saved their marriages. 

And I don't think it's ever compassion to tell people that it's going to be OK, when it's not.  That's how you deal with children, not adults.

No one wants to hurt the people they love, but, in the end, those are the only people we ever can and do hurt.

Quote from: tekla on November 26, 2009, 11:25:28 PM
Perhaps, then, the adults could chime in with their sage advice about how they saved their marriages. 

And I don't think it's ever compassion to tell people that it's going to be OK, when it's not.  That's how you deal with children, not adults.

No one wants to hurt the people they love, but, in the end, those are the only people we ever can and do hurt.

i have to agree with this tekla can be harsh but sometimes the truth hurts
jessica

Quote from: tekla on November 26, 2009, 11:25:28 PM
And I don't think it's ever compassion to tell people that it's going to be OK, when it's not.  That's how you deal with children, not adults.

There's always a possibility that Laura's marriage will stay intact. Okay, yeah, it may be a slim possibility. But it's rather presumptuous to assume that the marriage is doomed. I know of several relationships--a couple of them I only know about secondhand--that survived transition. How long they will eventually last is anyone's guess, but I could say that about a lot of non-trans relationships.

I don't advocate false optimism. I'm not arguing that we should all join hands and tell Laura that everything will turn out the way she wants. But there is a big difference between a post that politely states a point of view and one that is overly aggressive and confrontational. The former might offer food for thought; the latter usually raises hackles and either hurts people's feelings or pisses them off--or both. In my experience, most people don't think as effectively when they're busy being defensive, and they sure as heck don't feel supported. It's not that hard to state the "truth"--as we see it--in a fairly positive fashion.

I see no reason to attack one of our own in a support site. We, especially the women, get enough kicking from transphobic bigots.

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Post Merge: November 27, 2009, 03:12:07 AM

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Quote from: jesse on November 27, 2009, 02:26:13 AM
i have to agree with this tekla can be harsh but sometimes the truth hurts

I do not get the impression that Laura is blinded by any illusions about the probability that her marriage will survive if she transitions. Also bear in mind that nobody knows for sure what will happen. Oh, and for the record, I didn't have Tekla in mind when I posted. I don't know if anyone else did.

The theater I work at opened in May of 1922.  There have been over 10,000 shows there (not counting movies).  I've done Guns 'N Roses and Green Day with full pyrotechnic displays there.  In all that time, and through all that, its never caught fire.  Yet, every night, 1/2 hour before doors, I walk the entire structure, (about 25% of a city block, four stories tall) and check every single fire exit.  I check to make sure the descending fire stairs will fall, and that nothing is blocking them.  I plan for the worst.  Even when the odds of a fire are, given the history, 0. 

The odds here are much higher, so it would be prudent at the very least to consider the other options. 

Quote from: tekla on November 27, 2009, 08:00:42 AM
The odds here are much higher, so it would be prudent at the very least to consider the other options.

Absolutely.

Laura
I feel your pain.  We all go through some kind of wall. Choices are very hard to make, but we must.  I am going through the same thing now.  Remember you have already made your choice. You may have some control in the outcome, but not what you are. That will never change. LOL
Sarah