Quote from: xsocialworker on December 06, 2009, 09:36:39 AM
That is great if you can do it. Unfortunately, not everbody ( friends, family, employers) see these physical changes as no more than changing clothes or removing a blemish. Children can see the loss of the father or mother they believed they had or maybe those around you will now see you as doing satan's work and condemned to hell ( if one comes from certain backgrounds).  If you want to run for office, the media will always find this out and make it an issue. If you can't afford GRS, you live in a gender maybe world where a hospital visit or joining a health club becomes an adventure in political correctness. Mates can think you kept a big secret from them and wonder what else you are hiding. I'm really happy things worked so well for you. Good luck if you can get it.

I don't know any transitioner, either as a friend, co-worker,or agency client that didn't on some level have to fight for basic acceptance. How well they passed or not did not guarantee a smooth social transition. I know many de-transitioners who got fed up with homeless shelters and rejection by families. This is not hearsay because these were my clients in a shelter run by my employer.

Ok all fair points - which I probably missed because transitioning so young I really didn't have to fight much. If I'd have been your client I would have been the exception which proved the rule I guess.

That's why I am personally a believer in young treatment and transition and if possible SRS. I partly transitioned in my childhood and was fully transitioned before 21 (originally without medical help) and I had SRS before I turned 24 (just). I know my own road was INFINITELY easier because I simply didn't have to face all those issues. Or at least not to such an extent. It is far easier if you start your career in the gender role that you desire, and of course my family and friends had been used to my slightly blurred gender since my schooldays.

So I'll put my hand up and admit my ignorance. I'm learning, that's partly why I'm here, and I'll be honest I really don't know how well I would have coped with what all you wonderful people seem to deal with daily.

I also take the point about religion sometimes being an issue. Again it seems like I was very lucky.

The point about running for office though is to be "out" - it can only be used if it is a hidden secret. We have several openly transgender councilors and parliamentary candidates in the UK (for example the Mayor of Cambridge and her lady Mayoress are both elected and both postop Transwomen) and generally speaking the press and opponents seem to treat it as something which is irrelevant. Maybe it just isn't so much of an issue here in the UK?

Quote from: rejennyrated on December 05, 2009, 05:32:32 PM
I'm genuinely intrigued as to why you feel "transition or not" affects the authenticity of your relationships? To be authentic I guess that people should know sure... but other than that I can't see how transition or even SRS affects the authenticity of a relationship.

It no different from clothing really - the body is just the window dressing. The "authentic or not" bit comes from the person inside surely? Which doesn't change. Or am I missing something here?

When I "transitioned" the ONLY thing which I changed was the clothes that I wore. My behaviour changed not one iota. It was already as feminine as it needed to be.

My bodily appearance became different when underwent SRS but again my persona didn't change one iota. I didn't put on an act, "become" any more feminine than I already was. I didn't behave differently. I am the same person today as I always was, just a lot happier being it, because since SRS I have not been constantly disturbed by seeing a stranger whenever I look in the mirror.

It seems to me to follow logically that if my relationships were genuine before, they must still be genuine because the only thing which has changed is my outward appearance, and that could have happened for all sorts of other reasons. I don't suddenly worry that my relationships lack authenticity because I get a scar on my cheek or some other non SRS related alteration to my appearance after all.

So what am I missing here?

The process of transition was a defining time in my life.  My past, though male, was full of things that helped shape me as well.  Having relationships as a "100%" female meant throwing those things out and pretending they never happened.  Sometimes I could adapt stories, ie "when I was a little girl" instead of "when I was a little boy" or the gender neutral "when I was little" (which of course implies "girl" since that is how I present".  The problem was, I WASN'T a little girl, ever!  I have no idea what that is like.  Going to slumber parties with other girls often ratcheted up the intensity of these feelings as stories shared by others about uniquely girl things suddenly put me in an awkward position.  I'd go mysteriously quiet or change the subject when questions arose concerning me.  Dating was the ultimate stress on this.  How/when do I tell the guy I'm with that I wasn't always female?  I mean, I'd want to know if he wasn't, and further, I want to be able to be completely open and honest with the people who are close to me.

In the end feelings like these plagued me.  I felt like no matter what I did, I was deceiving others and that my relationships were ultimately a self perpetuating lie.  Sure, my feelings for them and theirs for me were real, but to keep something so significant to others so secret, felt like I was mocking the relationship.  In the end I started coming out to others, and in a dramatic twist, found that it might be possible to live as a male so long as others knew about my transsexual nature and I didn't put myself back into a box.  This revelation lead to my de-transition.

Quote from: interalia on December 07, 2009, 11:29:33 AM
The process of transition was a defining time in my life.  My past, though male, was full of things that helped shape me as well.  Having relationships as a "100%" female meant throwing those things out and pretending they never happened.  Sometimes I could adapt stories, ie "when I was a little girl" instead of "when I was a little boy" or the gender neutral "when I was little" (which of course implies "girl" since that is how I present".  The problem was, I WASN'T a little girl, ever!  I have no idea what that is like.  Going to slumber parties with other girls often ratcheted up the intensity of these feelings as stories shared by others about uniquely girl things suddenly put me in an awkward position.  I'd go mysteriously quiet or change the subject when questions arose concerning me.  Dating was the ultimate stress on this.  How/when do I tell the guy I'm with that I wasn't always female?  I mean, I'd want to know if he wasn't, and further, I want to be able to be completely open and honest with the people who are close to me.

In the end feelings like these plagued me.  I felt like no matter what I did, I was deceiving others and that my relationships were ultimately a self perpetuating lie.  Sure, my feelings for them and theirs for me were real, but to keep something so significant to others so secret, felt like I was mocking the relationship.  In the end I started coming out to others, and in a dramatic twist, found that it might be possible to live as a male so long as others knew about my transsexual nature and I didn't put myself back into a box.  This revelation lead to my de-transition.

I'm so glad to hear that that worked for you! And I now understand better what you mean - so thank you for sharing that.

Sadly I don't think it would ever have worked for me, partly because my childhood was far less clearcut, I genuinly did grow up between genders, and partly because a proportion of my motivation was physical body dismorphia and not about gender roles at all - I simply couldn't accept my male physical aspects to any meaningful extent.

But I do think that the points you raise are seriously worthy of careful consideration for anyone who is going through the process of deciding whether or not to transition. One must indeed know one's own mind and motivation very throroughly if one chooses to do this thing.

Quote from: rejennyrated on December 07, 2009, 12:20:29 PM
I'm so glad to hear that that worked for you! And I now understand better what you mean - so thank you for sharing that.

Sadly I don't think it would ever have worked for me, partly because my childhood was far less clearcut, I genuinly did grow up between genders, and partly because a proportion of my motivation was physical body dismorphia and not about gender roles at all - I simply couldn't accept my male physical aspects to any meaningful extent.

But I do think that the points you raise are seriously worthy of careful consideration for anyone who is going through the process of deciding whether or not to transition. One must indeed know one's own mind and motivation very throroughly if one chooses to do this thing.

During the process of transition, I had never heard this point of view before (that people felt like they might be deceiving others being stealth).  A few implied it, even justified the deceit by exclaiming, "I always was a woman" or "it isn't their business".  I only ever found one post op person to even write about it (and the distress it causes) but it was after I had already de-transitioned.

All the wonderful things about feeling that I was finally in the right body, etc, were overshadowed by this terrible inescapable truth - that I wasn't always a girl - and subsequently feeling the need to hide that fact to the detriment of my relationships.

Quote from: interalia on December 07, 2009, 12:44:05 PM
During the process of transition, I had never heard this point of view before (that people felt like they might be deceiving others being stealth).  A few implied it, even justified the deceit by exclaiming, "I always was a woman" or "it isn't their business".  I only ever found one post op person to even write about it (and the distress it causes) but it was after I had already de-transitioned.

All the wonderful things about feeling that I was finally in the right body, etc, were overshadowed by this terrible inescapable truth - that I wasn't always a girl - and subsequently feeling the need to hide that fact to the detriment of my relationships.

A very good reason for my current attitude which is to be honest whenever the issue arises and I can do so without causing embarassment. I then let people either take me or leave me. I don't advertise but I never conceal, although it isprobably is easier when, like me, you have been diagnosed as having an intersex component to the story.

Strangely enough the issue only rarely arises, and when it does 99% of people are fine... and the other 1% are just not worth the powder and shot!

I'm considering this path but I feel that the term "detransition" seems to imply some sort of "step backwards" impression to other people. I prefer to embrace it as a step forward rather than a step back - that all those years spent living as a woman wasn't a waste at all and were in fact stepping stones for self discovery and understanding.

I consider myself one of the lucky ones having done this very young as well but to put it really simply I think I have grown along the years - I'm not exactly that old either, but there are other facets in my life neglected in my journey so far. Its quite hard to explain but I feel I've inexplicably been placed into a box (ironically a transition from another extreme box) where people automatically assume things about me and don't really take me seriously e.g. in the same sense no one is going to take Lady Gaga or Beyonce seriously if they were to sit down and talk about quantum physics or spout off about Noam Chomsky. Not that I'm trying to be a physicist or philosopher or some intellectual but I'm increasingly feeling like some bimbotic automaton. And in my case, the bimbo, pretty face part seem to be poised to go downhill once I age and grow older.

Its a difficult box to get out of since it is a cushy, comfortable experience that really leaves one prone to a sense of apathy - it is ever so easy to get used to the superficial attention and privilege, especially from men - and to react reciprocally by maintaining that visage. I don't know how people ever save up money since I'm always blowing my entire pay check on clothes, shoes, makeup, hair styling, botox or facials etc. However, the greater price paid, at least in my opinion and experience, is that the nurture of my inner mettle and character inevitably takes a back seat in face of maintaining that outward image to people. That at the end of it all, I wouldn't have any solid, meaningful foundations built to connect with people and I'd feel lost and confused and lonely. Its a real concern for me since I haven't really found many people that I could connect deeply with, like with my mom or dad for instance - I think so far they were the only ones who are not the most concerned about outward appearances.

I can already see my girlfriends pondering similar questions as well, but usually their energies are directed towards paths that I can't approach the same way like procreation and having kids and becoming soccer mom types etc - I think that its one of the more common paths women take for the next half of their lives, then perhaps the next hitch comes up when their kids grow up and leave home. I can't really see myself doing the same though.

Not that I hate my life entirely now, but ultimately the path I'm on isn't healthy for me, given my tendency towards these obsessions.

Some instances I've had lately as well, where I've went overseas alone for travel. I had the opportunity to be alienated from my regular surroundings and in those moments of solitude I had some deep rooted revelations after self reflection (nothing of the religious sort). In short, the outer surface of what I thought was my unique, individual identity was simply a set of routines. I mean all this while I was always sure that we all have an essential self, but if you spend every day chopping up meat on a slab, and selling it by the pound, soon you'll find you've become a butcher. And if you don't want to become a butcher (why would I or you want to?) you'd have to cut right through the bare bones of you own character to find out who you really are.

Which definitely hurts. And it feels scary as well since I feel like I'm winging it.

Also like IA, I'm seeking that sense of authenticity in relationships and to connect with people in a more genuine way. The process keeps getting delayed because the attention I get is positive and validating and I haven't done anything concrete and keep procrastinating - I can't say for sure at this time whether I'll eventually go all the way.

I'm not really good at keeping my post cogent on all these but I hope I conveyed a good sense of where I'm coming from. >,<

Oceanus: I think that's a very sincere and interesting post.
I can understand what you are talking about

Still, for me, transition has been about achieving more authenticity.
I am much more free to be me.
Yes, I fit 100% in the broad category of "women", but I don't feel bound by limitations.
I guess that at my age that I haven't had as much (any?) objectifying as younger women get.

Speaking only for me, de-transition would be an enormous step backwards, possibly lethal.

I've been pondering this for a couple of days now, since I first posted in the thread. I think the bottom line here is that we live in an imperfect world. Whatever you choose to do in life there are always going to be some aspects of it which don't match your aspirations and hopes.

So it is like choosing a second hand car. The fool goes out looking for one perfect and without any faults and ends up frustrated because they don't exist (or at least not many of them). The slightly wiser person goes out looking for a car with faults and flaws which they can live with!

That's what I feel about my life. Obviously I see myself wholeheartedly as female, a woman, but I'm also realistic enough to know that there are some in CIS (and indeed maybe trans) society who might wish to view me as merely a mutilated and castrated male.

Ok, I'd far rather people saw me as a woman, and happily most do so, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince and argue with the rest. Because if the only option available for a postop Transwoman was to be seen as a castrated male then I would still have chosen to do what I have done because I feel at least I have made a valid statement about myself and moved myself a little closer to my ideal than I was before.

If you can reach that level of acceptance of the possible limitations of the situation, then you are probably ready for SRS, because nothing, no arguement that anyone could throw at you, will make you want to go back to how you were before.

I prefer to be seen as a woman, but if that were impossible I'd still far rather be as I am now, even if people did regard me as an oddity.

Some people can't reach that point. For them it is perfection or nothing. Their options then become less clearcut. They can either chase an impossible perfection, which they will never reach because we can't (yet) undo that Y chromasome, and even if we could we couldn't alter those early childhood memories which may be different from what they might have been.  The other alternative, is either not to transition at all, or indeed to de-transition.

If I was chasing perfection then I think I probably would have given up. Because it seems to me that chasing perfection in this flawed world is a terribly cruel, expensive and ultimately frustrating path to feel that you must tread.

Oceanus, I think I understand what you are saying.  It sounds to me like you haven't managed to find who you are as a person.  (I'm sorry if I'm reading the wrong things into your post.)  You have worked to become a woman but somehow the person didn't get developed.  I'm not sure that you need to de-transition to find that person, but perhaps you do.

I am transitioning late in life.  I had to develop myself as a person to get where I am today.  I looked into transition 25 years ago and couldn't do it.  I knew I wasn't ready because I hadn't developed enough as an adult and that trying to learn to fit in as a woman while I was still learning to fit as a human wouldn't work for me.  (I've always been slow to develop. )

Oceanus, it sounds like you are going through what most of us go through – cis and trans alike – trying to figure out who you are.  We all are, under our presentation and gender and orientation and everything else, just people.  Finding the person you are is part of growing up.  Good luck, sweetie.

(And please let me know if I am way off base here.  I apologize for making invalid assumptions.)

- Kate

When I have more time, I will respond to you specifically Oceanus.  I will say that you sound a lot like I did.

rejennyrated's comments about the car is perfectly true.  I've seen far too many transpeople move through their transition and NEVER be happy because they are always focused on things they don't have.  At no point do they ever stop and think of all they've gained, all they can focus on is how unfair it is what has been denied them due to their GID, etc.  It was being focused and happy on all that I had that helped me to be happy and helps me to be happy now.

You see, I didn't find my second hand car to be my transitioned body/life, but my male one.  I realized the car and the social impact of its imperfections were manageable, and I realized I could indeed drive it the rest of my life with a little tweeking.  Moving to the other sex second-hand car, while it seemed to be more what I wanted, had waaaaaay more problems under the hood.  After test driving it and realizing such, I traded it in for my old car and spent my resources improving that one.

Quote from: interalia on December 09, 2009, 01:33:42 PM
When I have more time, I will respond to you specifically Oceanus.  I will say that you sound a lot like I did.

rejennyrated's comments about the car is perfectly true.  I've seen far too many transpeople move through their transition and NEVER be happy because they are always focused on things they don't have.  At no point do they ever stop and think of all they've gained, all they can focus on is how unfair it is what has been denied them due to their GID, etc.  It was being focused and happy on all that I had that helped me to be happy and helps me to be happy now.

You see, I didn't find my second hand car to be my transitioned body/life, but my male one.  I realized the car and the social impact of its imperfections were manageable, and I realized I could indeed drive it the rest of my life with a little tweeking.  Moving to the other sex second-hand car, while it seemed to be more what I wanted, had waaaaaay more problems under the hood.  After test driving it and realizing such, I traded it in for my old car and spent my resources improving that one.

My point exactly!

(and of course I came to the opposite evaluation.)

Well, for me I definitely feel like de-transitioning would call the legitimacy of my condition into question for those around me, and that alone constitutes losing ground I have gained.

On a totally unrelated (and terribly shallow) note - with all due respect to our new friend, my fondest wish would be to sample a decade or so of being the sort of "bimbo" she describes.

Maybe it's just the realization that I'm old enough that nothing that goes with that experience will ever happen to me but that life, including all the things people tend to describe as negatives about it (not being taken seriously as a thinker, being "talked down to", and etc) appeal to me a lot

(She says obviously having NO experience upon which to base the opinion )

Oh that's OK Laura Honey, even if you had had some experience I'm not sure you would have known what it meant.  Better leave that to your betters.


There you go Laura, that's what its like.  But all the time.

I could live with that....

Quote from: tekla on December 09, 2009, 11:39:09 PM
Oh that's OK Laura Honey, even if you had had some experience I'm not sure you would have known what it meant.  Better leave that to your betters.


There you go Laura, that's what its like.  But all the time.

*kills self*

mmmm *shakes head in disbelief* laura hun really you would like being treated like dirt with no oppinion even cis women dont like that they may get it but few put up with it for long except the truly dumb ones
jessica

Quote from: Laura Hope on December 09, 2009, 11:24:40 PM
Well, for me I definitely feel like de-transitioning would call the legitimacy of my condition into question for those around me, and that alone constitutes losing ground I have gained.

On a totally unrelated (and terribly shallow) note - with all due respect to our new friend, my fondest wish would be to sample a decade or so of being the sort of "bimbo" she describes.

Maybe it's just the realization that I'm old enough that nothing that goes with that experience will ever happen to me but that life, including all the things people tend to describe as negatives about it (not being taken seriously as a thinker, being "talked down to", and etc) appeal to me a lot

(She says obviously having NO experience upon which to base the opinion )

There's nothing wrong at all wanting to sample that kind of life its almost addictive sometimes. I mean I grew up in a post club kid sorta era where you have people like Paris Hilton or Nicole Richie, both who are older than me and sort of role models to me. Both of course gracing social stages of extreme burlesque which is pretty farcical to most people - yes it is an exaggeration, however the experience is very tempting and tantalizing. Although whatever highs or gratification feels fleeting and extremely transient when the party ends.

If I could parallel my thoughts to a story - I suppose in a pretty morbid way, I feel both like Henry Higgins and Eliza Doolittle in the Pygmalion where there's a sense that seeking changes to attain authenticity may inevitably get mixed up in a cycle of validation. Then in the end you end up revisiting or experiencing your origins and find that you could do what you really wanted from the start, without having the need to go through all the trouble in the first place.

K8 I agree that I probably haven't found myself - I think everyone does as well. I don't think I could take the regular route though like most of my peers to occupy my next 20-25 years and it does bug me in a sort of way.

The car analogy you guys mention reminds me of an encounter I had with an ex-superior. He was actually trying to hook up with me at that time - and we ended up having food at a famous roadside stall where the food was amazing at cheap prices. He's a really successful banker, and young at 35, and I was one of the up and coming, ambitious sales persons that joined his firm. I can't remember how the rest of the conversation went since he was trying to proposition me, very sleazy yes but its a silly workplace dynamic in investment banks where they hire brainless money hungry bimbos (yes I was one of them) - but strangely all I remember till today was him mentioning his poor upbringings and eating at the same roadside stall before he was successful and he realized that after all his hard work and money made, he was essentially doing the same things as before that he could do before when he was poor and after going through the entire cycle of luxury - he was increasingly shunning the materialism and doing things like jogging in the park after work, reading newspapers and eating at mom's and pop's, roadside stall kinda places. Of course, I didn't entirely buy his self-deprecation in that sort since his maserati was parked beside (plus the fact he's married) but I couldn't help at the same time find his thoughts terribly insightful and thought provoking.

The point I guess is that if I were to become a statistic on a psychology journal it would seem almost irrational that I would be having regrets at all, since if I were to examine things my transition on paper would seem like an ideal or at the very least, a legitimate case. Maybe that's the problem since life isn't on paper *shrugs* 

I'm really thankful for this thread by the way, its been really interesting so far to read all these responses.

Watch Faux Noise and you will see otherwise intelligent women like Gretchen Carlsen and Greta Van Sustern dumb down for money. Actually that includes every female on Fixed News. Compare them to Rachel Maddow who does not get cutsy nor pander to men. Anna Marie Cox sounds like a valley girl and so does Cindy McCain. However neither is actually playing "girlie" and what they have to say is not dumned down at all. It's simple. Liberal girlie girls are still intelligent and conservative bubble heads hide their intelligence cause that is what the "base" enjoys.

(hope this is relevant-----lol)

You don't have to go any further than the difference between Sara Palin and Hillary Clinton on that right/left deal.

Quote from: jesse on December 10, 2009, 02:07:22 AM
mmmm *shakes head in disbelief* laura hun really you would like being treated like dirt with no oppinion even cis women dont like that they may get it but few put up with it for long except the truly dumb ones
jessica

Well, it IS a bit tongue in cheek because I was thinking of that as part of the overall package of being young and desirable and so forth.

Like anything else, the stereotype of such "grass is greener" fantasies is ALWAYS way better than actually having it.

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Post Merge: December 10, 2009, 12:36:22 PM

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QuoteThere's nothing wrong at all wanting to sample that kind of life its almost addictive sometimes.  - yes it is an exaggeration, however the experience is very tempting and tantalizing. Although whatever highs or gratification feels fleeting and extremely transient when the party ends.

Thank you, I'm glad you understand what I was getting at and what the attraction is to me.

I'm not trying to argue that i would have no problem with being the sallow bimbo type ever because I have no frame of reference to guess, but I'm also not going to deny that it appeals to me very much to have the chance to find out.

I don't know if it contributes to the feeling or not but I've always been better informed, smarter, whatever than a lot of the people around me and I don't have much in life to show for it and I've also been one of the least desierable "men" around in any given situation so flipping those two might be interesting.