When it comes to the terms primary transsexual or Type VI transsexual?

We readily acknowledge we are all different and have followed our own paths through life but that we have certain common concerns so I am curious why the idea of PT or Type VI is so hated even though it occurs in such small numbers.

Please don't make this personal or take it as offensive - I just want to understand why.

Quote from: Northern Jane on December 26, 2009, 07:28:31 AM
When it comes to the terms primary transsexual or Type VI transsexual?

We readily acknowledge we are all different and have followed our own paths through life but that we have certain common concerns so I am curious why the idea of PT or Type VI is so hated even though it occurs in such small numbers.

Please don't make this personal or take it as offensive - I just want to understand why.

I think you probably answered your own question - basically it comes down to insecurity I think.

You and I had the good fortune to have our treatment whilst very young. But even so I still kick myself for not being firmer when I was 17 and pushing harder - I often wonder whether I could have avoided those extra 7 years before SRS.

Now imagine that you had left things even later - why I don't know. Maybe you were just in a place where such things were unheard of or something...

Then some poncy psychologist who wants to overanalyse everything comes along and wants to stick a different label on you because you are a late transitioner...

You probably already feel bad about that, and angry with yourself for not doing something sooner, and now someone is trying to put you into a different category...

But deep down you KNOW that you knew what you should have done years ago. True you didn't do it...

But if this jerk of a psychologist who is labelling you as something else could have seen your life he would know why you couldn't...

So the term becomes a source of insecurity and that's why people hate it.

I think labels should really be only used when absolutely essential! Because they all to easily become a source, not of help in understanding, but of division and even further pain.

We are all equally valid.

PS - I am assuming that I have imagined the thought process right here as, for anyone who insists on these silly labels, I was actually categorised as a "Primary"/Type 1. So if anyone who is/was a late transitioner wants to take me to task and tell me that I have it wrong then I will happily defer to your expertise.

But I repeat - we are all equally valid and "genuine" and in my opinion none of us should judge others.

Jenny, if I understand what you are saying, the difference between early and late transitioners might be backbone.  Hmmm, an interesting thought.   I am not sure I disagree.

But there is no question that the hostility we have seen on here is part insecurity, and part the simple fact that transgendered people have issues.  I know, big surprise, huh?   There is no excuse for it, and it is so shocking to first encounter it from within the community, not just from without.  But welcome to life.  Just another case where we seem determined to shoot our wounded.

Kristi

Quote from: Kristi on December 26, 2009, 08:48:55 AM
Jenny, if I understand what you are saying, the difference between early and late transitioners might be backbone.  Hmmm, an interesting thought.   I am not sure I disagree.


Kristi

Not entirely - it could just be particularly adverse circumstance...

I was so unbelievably lucky that I deserve to be shot every day at dawn for a week as compensation... seriously no one should have been as lucky as me! (or maybe everyone should )

My point is that whatever the reason, division and labels can sometimes become obstacles, and I think that is a real shame.

I personally have a great deal of respect for people who are late or even part time transitioners - because to me my road was infinitely easier than theirs must be! (yet they still do it! - that is real dedication!)

So I genuinely regard myself as the lowest of the low when it comes to brownie points. In many ways it was actually cowardice which made me an early SRS candidate.  It was an easy choice

"Please don't make this personal or take it as offensive - I just want to understand why."
--------------
I doubt it has anything to do with TS. It has to do with people's motives in life.

I guess it is just my nature - I don't "do hierarchy", don't respect hierarchy. As a matter of fact, I regard with suspicion those who do.

Quote from: Northern Jane on December 26, 2009, 09:16:57 AM
I guess it is just my nature - I don't "do hierarchy", don't respect hierarchy. As a matter of fact, I regard with suspicion those who do.

Quite so - like I said - you answered your own question, and in fact in rather better words than I did.

None of us should indeed do "hierachy". We are all different but equal.

Quote from: Valeriedances on December 26, 2009, 09:42:33 AM
Ugh, I find that term 'backbone' particularly hostile and hurtful which I've never read your posts to be before ...and is the point of this thread. No one knows the life I lived and the choices I made to survive. That is calling someone a coward ...and you don't even know me, what my options were in life. Maybe I was abused sexually, physically and emotionally when young ...maybe I grew up in the south with few options and great prejudice ...maybe the internet didn't exist where knowledge is power ...or the words transgendered or transsexual were known to the general public in the 60's or 70's ...maybe it took many years to escape adversity and then more years to heal. I'll repeat that no one knows the life I lived nor did they live in my shoes. Those that are able to transition young are privileged in my view.

See, I am sensitive too.

My point exactly Valerie. All points which I made in my posts.

Believe me I'm with you 100% girl! and I meant what I said - people like you have my utmost respect! I was simply lucky and didn't have your courage!

Some people tend to use the terms "primary transsexual", "true transsexual", "type VI", "early transitioner" for insecurity reasons & to demean those people who for one reason or another have chosen a different path.

Heh, even on this thread, I sense a patronising tone.  "oh poor you, you're an old transitioner & a 'secondary' transsexual, you aren't as 'primary' as I am but I love you anyway, we're all the same"  That's what I call hypocrisy.  Pathetic.

Thing is that there are certain terms, like "primary transsexual", that are from the stone age.  Some people seem to be stuck in those times.  It's almost 2010, the terms have changed; it's time to live in the present not in the past.  Even homosexuality was removed from the 'DSM' years ago.  Did you know that?

People have different circumstances, different wants & transition when they can & if they want.  Nobody has the right to judge anyone or to make subtle insinuations about other people's choices.  Live & let live.

Quote from: Fer on December 26, 2009, 09:56:28 AM
Heh, even on this thread, I sense a patronising tone.  "oh poor you, you're an old transitioner & a 'secondary' transsexual, you aren't as 'primary' as I am but I love you anyway, we're all the same"  That's what I call hypocrisy.  Pathetic.

Sorry Fer - I can't prove it - but on this occasion you are genuinely mistaken.

I repeat - I don't do labels or hierarchy and it isn't my fault that I was an early - that's just a simple fact which I can't alter. What do you want me to do lie? I merely try to be honest so that no one can accuse me of dissembling.

I am quite genuine in what I say - Sadly all you are proving is that if someone wants to find a way to take offense they will, as you indeed appear to have done, quite wrongly, to what I said.

And yes I do know about the DSM and I am one of those campaigning for the whole trans thing to be taken out and I have been doing so since about 1988!

Jenny, I didn't take offense at anything.  I could sit here all day & tell you about my age, when I transitioned, the choices I made, but why?  Anybody could read my posts or check my profile to find that out.  Repeating the same song over and over would indicate that perhaps I'm not so sure I'm "real".  I reckon you're the one taking offense at a general statement I made.  If I recall correctly, I didn't mention any names.  I said that there was a patronising flavour floating around.  Sorry you took it personally.  It wasn't my intent.

Quote from: Fer on December 26, 2009, 10:11:25 AM
Jenny, I didn't take offense at anything.  I could sit here all day & tell you about my age, when I transitioined, the choices I made, but why?  Anybody could read my posts or check my profile to find that out.  Repeating the same song over and over would indicate that perhaps I'm not so sure I'm "real".  I reckon you're the one taking offense at a general statement I made.  If I recall correctly, I didn't mention any names.  I said that there was a patronising flavour floating around.  Sorry you took it personally.  It wasn't my intent.

Ok my mistake then - I think maybe I'm just over sensitive, given the delicate nature of the topic, and the fact that I've been inadvertently involved in a recent "trainwreck thread" which resulted in someone very dear to me getting needlessly hurt in the crossfire.

Anyway my apologies to you too... No offense

J.

We now return the rest of you to the thread.

I think when it happened, the naming, defining and labeling, there were very few people doing it - in the case of certain words and definitions, few equals one - and even fewer who cared, and further on down the road everyone got stuck with them.

Quote from: Tasha Elizabeth on December 26, 2009, 10:18:55 AM
look at it from my point of view.  i've known since i was 4.  in small-town nebraska, in the 60's, after being slapped down numerous times by parents, i learned to keep my mouth shut.  there was no internet or any other source of information.  i thought i was crazy, and attempted suicide 3 times before i even left my teens.

i tried *everything* to live a normal life.  the military, marriage, children.  every day i got up i had to decide to be a guy and go out and play the part; and sure most of the time i could function, but the dark times were very dark indeed.  fast forward 25 years, and finally, FINALLY, i am at the point to where i can finally transition and be me, for however many years i have left.

I very much relate to what Tasha wrote, and I think it speaks to the reasons terms like "true transsexual" have been dropped from use by anyone seriously studying transsexualism more recently. The only way to define such a term is entirely too circumstantial to be scientifically validated.

Most of us who transition later in life have vivid memories of the incredible pressure put upon us at the very earliest ages to conform to our birth sex's gender role expectation. It didn't matter how poorly we were able to "pass" as our birth sex early on. It would be (in many cases literally) beaten into us with enough repetition that we eventually got it. In most cases we did not have anyone else to turn to for support. The internet didn't exist to tell us we were not alone. All the doctors, teachers, members of the clergy, parents of friends were squarely on the side of making us conform. Most people in such communities didn't (and in many cases still don't) believe in the reality of transsexualism.

The suggestion that there ought to have been about the same number of early transitioners bubbling up through the cracks in such an environment as there are in today's more tolerant communities - and this is what terms like "true transsexual" suggest - is not very credible on its face.

It reminds me of some of the very earliest guidelines about transsexual surgery. They used to only allow it if you were petite & naturally feminine in appearance... basically if your genes already allowed you to be pretty passable before they lifted a finger to help you. The fact that this didn't have any relation on what was going on inside the mind of the transsexual didn't seem to be much of a factor. It was like they were hanging a big sign outside their door "No Ugly Chicks!"

People who were fortunate enough to get the support of the transsexual practitioners of the day didn't have anything different going on inside their heads than the people who were turned away. They simply had a more fortunate life circumstance. Adopting their antiquated and arbitrary language and trying to apply it to modern transsexuals is simply reminding people of an old and painful wound which we are hopefully just being able to overcome.

(And if anything I wrote above comes across as offensive, I pre-emptively apologize. In my experience those trying to understand terms like "true transsexual" are sincere and trying to understand themselves better. Many of us are angry at our own past and it unintentionally comes out as if we're angry at those who raise the questions.)

Valerie

For what it is worth I too was raped - actually gang raped is a much better description because there were three of them, whilst I was at senior school - I was about 16 at the time, and I never told a soul, not even my gender psychiatrist what had happened to me.

In fact I only really started to talk about it a few years ago, but I try not to do so too often for obvious reasons. (We all have our dark corners in life)

So please believe me I do understand very well a little of what you have been through.

J. x.

I ofttimes wonder why there is this hostility.  Yes, I am a late transitioner.  But my life lead me to take steps to please the world (Parents mostly).  I also was raped as a child.  Ashamed and frightened, I told no one.  I was called '->-bleeped-<-got' most of my young life.  To hide I did what was expected of guys.  Married, had children, divorced.  It wasn't till the 70's that I even knew that there was a name for how I felt. 

I went to California to a gender clinic there.  And even there I was told in about 10 minutes that I was not a 'true transsexual', so back in the closet I went.  And I used that male life to hide from the world.  I tried several different ways to kill myself over the years.  I wanted to end the feelings.  Two more wives and two more children later, I gave in to those feelings.   

My entire life, I have felt that I was a freak and not worth love, respect or even a decent living.  That is a lot of hiding and self-defeatist attitude to over come.  If I had been truer to myself I would have transitioned at an early age.  But the peer pressure and trying to gain the respect of my parents, I hide.  And I was good at it.  No one knew.  Yes I was still called 'queer', but I could not be.  I had a wife and children, right?

After my strokes, I knew I had to at least try to be true to me.  So I told my wife that the feelings were back and here I am.

Yes I have hostility.  But it isn't towards younger transitioners, unless they figuratively call me a fake for starting late.  The hostility is towards myself for not doing what the younger ones, who are now my age, have done.  I was gutless then, but I am not now.

The greatest words I ever heard was from my therapist.  When I went back to him to begin transition he told me that "I knew you would be back.  It is obvious you are a 'true transsexual'".  I may not be doing everything I can, but there is this thing called life that I have to attended to, but day by day I get closer.

Northern Jane and Jenny are just a couple of the girls I respect and look up too.  Sorry girls but it is true.  I only wish I had done what you did.


Janet

Quote from: Diana_W on December 26, 2009, 11:12:46 AM

The suggestion that there ought to have been about the same number of early transitioners bubbling up through the cracks in such an environment as there are in today's more tolerant communities - and this is what terms like "true transsexual" suggest - is not very credible on its face.

Good point. So suddenly the percentage of 'true transsexuals' has jumped dramatically in recent years? Makes much more sense that more young people are transitioning now due to tolerance and awareness and not an increase in the percentage of 'true transsexuals'.

As for the topic, I think it might not be the terms 'primary transsexual' and 'type VI' people are reacting to so much, but the implications of them - true transsexual vs ->-bleeped-<-; primary vs secondary (second, less legitimate,etc); type VI vs type I-V (less afflicted, less serious, etc). It seems like these terms were created to 'separate the wheat from the chaff' and I think that's what people are reacting to, not the early transitioners themselves.

Quote from: Valeriedances on December 26, 2009, 11:06:04 AM
I am overly sensitive, I am sure, because of my life story...

The main question I have is, why the lack of empathy or compassion for us late-transitioners? Maybe we have had a life you can hardly imagine except through TV.

I hope this discussion is able to raise some compassion for others when it is finished.

Valerie, please forgive me.  I am the one who used that term in an attempt to boil down what Jenny said.  I did not mean any of the things you seem to have read into it.  Sorry about that.  I simply meant that, looking at myself, I could transition right this minute.  I soooo want to!  I need to.  I just know it would be to the detriment of both myself and those around me.  It will also be to my detriment that I do not.  Who do I put first?  That's all I meant by backbone.  If we care about no one else around us, and are willing to throw caution to the wind so far as our own finances, health, etc, then virtually anyone can transition today.  Thankfully, not many have that extreme attitude.  It may or may not be the right time.  Many (not all) of those who damn the torpedoes and go full speed ahead seem to resent those who do not.

FWIW, if I am reading between the lines correctly, we have some common things in our background.  You will never hear me blaming the victim here.

I just know everyone has different circumstances that allow and push them to transition when the time is right.  I liken it to being different kinds of fruit.  We ripen at different times.  Transitioning should happen when we are ripe for it.  And yes, I've been told I am as nutty as a fruitcake. 

Hostility is misplaced anger.  Let's use that energy where it will do some good.

Kristi

As an outsider to the "trans community" (I have only met trans people in the past year even though I've been actively transitioning for a decade), I have to say I'm quite baffled that there has developed such categorizations amongst trans-folk!

Seriously.  What possible good purpose could it serve for _any_ reason what-so-ever!?! 

casual sounding manner or even outright arrogantly by some of the younger transitioners ...which is really immaturity, but does still tend to push buttons

I guess what's the worth of youth without a high measure of causal arrogance (might as well do it while you can), but regardless, the definition of being mature is not allowing things to push your buttons.

Me, I'm a lazy intellectual, so I go for Occam's Razor straight off the shelf every time, which in this case isn't to wonder about the target of the hostility, but to wonder about the source of the hostility in general, and thus I'd tend to write a lot of it off as a lot of people in the age group you are talking about are a lot more hostile (or you're a lot more mellow, take your pick) then the generation(s) they are talking with.  And I'm not sure if that is an actual hostility (and they have plenty of cause for it) or if that a more casual hostility in written communications as a direct result of doing so much of their interpersonal communication via the internet.