I just got done watching someone on youtube going on about acceptance and stealth.  She seem to make some good points but she also seemed to want the holy grail.  She said that she was tired of being a known as a girl with an * at the end and just wanted to be a regular girl.  She is tired of having to defend herself.  She wants to be known as just a genetic girl and doesn't understand why she cannot.  She said she does not want to be "accepted".  We all want that for ourselves.  While I understand her pain, isn't it a bit unrealistic to want or even aspect to gain the holy grail of all TG world?  We all have things we wish we didn't have to do.  Once again I will use my handicapped card.  Obviously I wish I could just be a person without having to be known as the "retard" by strangers and whatever else but  I can never achieve this and know it.  Can someone get the holy grail or am I correct in thinking that this person is striving for something that can never be?

Quote from: lauren3332 on January 06, 2010, 08:27:23 AM
I just got done watching someone on youtube going on about acceptance and stealth.  She seem to make some good points but she also seemed to want the holy grail.  She said that she was tired of being a known as a girl with an * at the end and just wanted to be a regular girl.  She is tired of having to defend herself.  She wants to be known as just a genetic girl and doesn't understand why she cannot.  She said she does not want to be "accepted".  We all want that for ourselves.  While I understand her pain, isn't it a bit unrealistic to want or even aspect to gain the holy grail of all TG world?  We all have things we wish we didn't have to do.  Once again I will use my handicapped card.  Obviously I wish I could just be a person without having to be known as the "retard" by strangers and whatever else but  I can never achieve this and know it.  Can someone get the holy grail or am I correct in thinking that this person is striving for something that can never be?

I thought that was the main objective of a gender change.....to be perceived as a female? why is she unrealisic? and what did she look like to make you think that she was being unrealistic?

There are so many factors working against most trans people that impede the goal of being their identified gender in all aspects of life.  First off, your parents know your birth gender.  And there's siblings and extended family.  Depending how long you lived in your birth gender, those numbers increase when it comes to friends, school classmates and coworkers.  Add to that, records are better kept than ever.  Achieving the same gender identification level as a genetic person of your identified gender is practically impossible, if not completely impossible. 

If you look at the odds, the energies spent on trying to achieve the nearly impossible would be better spent working on achieving social acceptance to the point there is no perceived social difference.

Last night I was at a meeting of a group dedicated to helping make some of those changes.  We were giving long term goals and one person said, "For groups like this to become no longer necessary."  In other words, work to make the social changes so we no longer need to fight for equality, acceptance and recognition.  That may seem a pretty lofty goal but it's a lot better than working your entire life to "disappear" into society.

We spend so much time wondering if we passed, worrying if there are records out there that will out us, working to perfect our gender presentation, that we miss the big picture - Acceptance.

It's a confusing mess of madness all that.

The more I look at the trans-search for the "holy grail" (as you put it) in relation to a woman's search for acceptance in regards to beauty, respect, etc. ... the more I realize it really is a mixed bag.

My therapist really put it best when she brought up the fact that over the course of time there have been numerous "over masculine" women who have shined with a strong since of femininity / sexuality / power that have garnered them respect regardless of what society at that time normally would deem as "normal".

I think trans-women tend to lean on those old stereotypes even more-so than women (for obvious reasons) and thus getting past them and creating a sense of self worth is that much more difficult.

... but once you strip away your trans-identity and see it purely from the perspective of what it means to _really_ be a woman (which of course is as vast as the stars in the sky), it becomes a lot easier to see that the "holy grail" can be any cup you choose. 

Unrealistic or not, that Holy Grail is my only chance.

For me, being "accepted as a transgender woman" is no more an appropriate solution than living as a male. It doesn't address my particular needs or motivations whatsoever.

That doesn't necessarily mean I have to hide my past from everyone. I realize I can't totally erase the facts of my history, but I can erode the relevance of it by just living my life normally and showing my own lack of interest.

The more you fight to "be the same," the more you set yourself apart as being something different.

i think.....

just like in real life there is no holy grail..we are what we are and we have to deal with that all of our  lives..it is a handicap and there is no cure..yes it can be wonderful and exciting but it is never ever going to be what we all really want.. to have been born in the gender we need to be.. even stealth is a form of transition ...... the moment we were born with the biology we have we can never fully arrive at the destination we beleive we should have started out from in the first place.....

Quote from: ius2avasasage on January 06, 2010, 05:49:58 PM
but it is never ever going to be what we all really want.. to have been born in the gender we need to be..

I don't think that's a universal motivation. For the vast majority of transgender people, the motivation seems to be to express a "gender identity" by "perfecting one's gender presentation."

Sure, being born in the "target sex" would make that easier, but I think for them that would be a means to an end, and not the root need driving everything.

And within that goal, being accepted as someone "presenting as a woman" is probably often adequate, even desirable, as they often seem to enjoy the limelight of being "transgender" - at least when not being persecuted for it.

Me, I'll be chasing that "need to have been born a girl" insatiable demon for the rest of my life. No "presentation." No "gender identity." I just need to have been born female. It's irrational, it's delusional, it's insane to think I can ever achieve it. But IT doesn't care, whatever IT is, it's been stuck in me forever and will never let me go.

Quote from: Marie731 on January 06, 2010, 06:53:22 PMI just need to have been born female. It's irrational, it's delusional, it's insane to think I can ever achieve it. But IT doesn't care, whatever IT is, it's been stuck in me forever and will never let me go.

I don't think it's irrational or delusional to feel that way.

Who knows what is beyond death, and with technology, who knows what will be capable in life! 

my point exactly..that is why we are transsexual...to have been born in a female or male gender depending on who you are is the holy grail...nothing any doctor or anything you can ever do in your life will change that, ever, you will always know...the only difference between a girl born with a male biology and a girl born with a female biology is one of them knows....and we are the ones who know  .... for myself i wish i didn't... its okay but i think it would be nicer to have not known...

I have been pondering this question for a while.  We all talk about 'acceptance' by society.  We work for it, perfect our 'art' and so forth.

But let's stop a minute and go look in the mirror.  Go on, I'll wait .............

Ok, the person you just looked at is a woman, born a girl, raised as a girl ( Albeit, it was more like a boy ), loved as a girl, went to school as a girl.  So why do we need to be accepted by society?  We are women, regardless of what the others see.  Look around.  Have you ever seen a woman that was too tall, too heavy, too masculine looking, just too unfeminine?

We all have, everyone has.  They may be laugh at but they move on.  No one, but us and our potential partner will ever see between our legs.  So why do we ramble on about acceptance?  Do we wish to be accepted by society or do we just go on with our lives.

Maybe it comes down to just the whole idea of Transpeople being in the world and the society must accept it?  We already know it does not.  So do we fade into the woodwork?  Or do we go boldly into the world and society as women?

None of us are Transwoman, we are women.  We have our own thoughts, beliefs, values and morals.  But society still sees us as Transwomen.  Society needs to be taught that not every woman is their version of womanhood.

The Holy Grail is that society realize that women come in all shapes and sizes.


^{~The opinions stated as the writer's own and not necessarily those of management.~}
Janet

Quote from: Janet Lynn on January 06, 2010, 09:04:41 PM
Ok, the person you just looked at is a woman, born a girl, raised as a girl ( Albeit, it was more like a boy ), loved as a girl, went to school as a girl.

Very nicely said. And I sooooo wish to believe it. I really do.

Because what's been driving me crazy is:

Quote from: ius2avasasage on January 06, 2010, 08:32:23 PM
the only difference between a girl born with a male biology and a girl born with a female biology is one of them knows...

If I can believe I always was a girl, I can salvage this Very Good Life of mine, keep my friends, keep everything I've built and earned... since I did it as a girl.

But if not, I HAVE to leave it all behind and start over, to TRY and somehow live in the delusion that I was born female, erasing and avoiding any reminders telling me otherwise.

The inner battle rages on...

Perhaps I should clarify what I meant by my original post.  This is the kind of things she has been saying.

"I was referring to the fact that there are MANY similarities between many individuals in the community. Because of this, they often say things like 'Im proud to be transgendered!' I myself, am not. Its because #1, why be proud of a disability/birth defect? To be proud of such a thing only hurts your argument to society that you are no different than genetic women. Also, the many similarities in the trans community, I don't identify with one bit."

"yay as well for character limits! :-P
Its like I said in my one video tho. Many trans women are comforted by talking to those in the community as many are very openmindede because many of them have their own personal quirks, kinks, and 'progressive' view on gender and society. 
I dont identify with this. I like the binary gender system. I believe people have the right to be a bit of a blend, or third gender, but I *do not* believe in radically changing society in that regard to suit them."

"Once I began to pass, society began to warm up to me, since they didnt know I wasnt born a woman, but the trans culture began to hate on me out of jealousy. That's honestly why I DONT wanna help the community as a whole. I often peer into the community and find the few women like myself, who dont fit in and feel so alone, and pull them out of it and teach them that it is TOTALLY ok to live in total 100% stealth. That unless the person is their family or the one they are romantically involved with, its NO ONE's business."

"I was a woman ,I desperately HATED being a boy, but I knew I HAD to act like one to survive. Many trans women, like it or not, have SOME affinity with being male. Most believe that all of us will ALWAYS be partially male, and thats fine if they believe that for themselves, but for me, its blatantly wrong."

"There are many ways for us to help our sisters just starting out, but you dont need to be out to do so. Also, eventually, we need to move on and live our lives and let the next generation of girls step up to help the following generation of trans women." 

She has a point but I don't know it seems like she wants to be put in the box of genetic woman even though she despises being trans.  She claims to be 25. If she completely hated being a boy for I 20 or so years of her life.  Wouldn't she want to share her experiences with others and help as many as she could within her own community?  I am not saying advertise it to strange people.  It seems like she is being shallow only helping those who strictly identify with exactly the way she does.  Even if your story does not match up exactly with others, you can still relate someway to the rest. 

I didn't copy all that just to bash someone else.  I did it because that is a scary thing.  It's scary that someone can go through so much anguish and then say oh well I pass so I'm out.  Maybe she didn't put it that way, but you know what I mean.  It seems that she likes society the way it is and thinks that others should not accept birth defects.  When people say they are proud to be X, that doesn't mean they are actually proud of being that.  It usually means that they are proud of the experiences they had in order to have the better outlook they have at a future moment. 

Would this person while living stealth actually go somewhere and see someone else is anguish and torn up over the same issued they had suffered and not tell them they went through the same thing?  That is creepy.  She is correct that you don't know need to be something in order to fight for it.  She did fight for something and she shouldn't hide it because it's easier.  Nothing ever ends, it just changes. 

I will never be able to live a life without knowing or feeling my cerebral palsy.  Even those who have completed transition probably still feel something.  Granted the bulk of their negative feelings are gone, but you can't tell me it's over.  It seems like this person is allowing society to contiue hating on Transsexuals.

Is this what the holy grail is?  To say I got mine see you later.  Let the next wave of TG people help.

Once again if I woke up without a disability would i just pretend not to have had CP and say let the people who still have it and the future generations take care of it. 

There is hate everywhere.  People will kill you because they didn't like the shade of green your shirt was. 

Well I learned something from this.  I think my guilt and fear of being a fraud is now gone.  If she wants to be in a box, go ahead.  I liked Gothique11's approach to TSism.  She went through it all and still does things even though people hate it. 

I am sorry for this blog type of material.  I just found it shocking that a person would actually not help others given the pain she went through because it's too much stress on her back.   

The holy grail?

I don't have a clue; I'm like the unarmed bear in the woods (inside joke, sorry). For most of us, we have never been, are not now, and will not be in the future, "Genetic females." Never. At least until the science progresses to actually changing the genes from male to female. Hmmm, maybe that can be my put-myself-to-sleep-fantasy for tonight.

But, we can become females, incomplete, but female none the less; we can become women, seen and accepted as such. Holy grail? Maybe, maybe not, but I'll settle for that for this life, and hope for the improving opportunities for our grand-daughters to be in the future.

SusanKG

insatiable demon 

I would like to be rich, I would like to be beautiful, I would like to be young, I would like to be a different gender.  I would like to be lots of things, maybe even a playboy centerfold, but that's not likely.

For me at least, what seems best is to go after what's achievable and make the best of it.  It's good to have 'stretch' goals but wasting time and energy on something that will never be limits what you can be.

I will never pass as female  (except for possibly among the blind and deaf).  I have to accept that.  However, there are things that I can do.  Hormones, some woman's clothing, explore androgyny, and share who I am with my spouse.  There are a million things I'm interested in trying.  Even if you don't reach the destination, the journey can still kick ass!

I admire those who can find the holy grail, I can't.

I can't quite stretch to the holy grail but I work and live and are seen by most people as a woman and it's fine.  It's well worth the effort.

Quote from: Marie731 on January 06, 2010, 05:45:30 PM
Unrealistic or not, that Holy Grail is my only chance.

For me, being "accepted as a transgender woman" is no more an appropriate solution than living as a male. It doesn't address my particular needs or motivations whatsoever.

That doesn't necessarily mean I have to hide my past from everyone. I realize I can't totally erase the facts of my history, but I can erode the relevance of it by just living my life normally and showing my own lack of interest.

The more you fight to "be the same," the more you set yourself apart as being something different.

Exactely, I totally agree..

Quote from: lauren3332 on January 06, 2010, 11:06:14 PMI am sorry for this blog type of material.  I just found it shocking that a person would actually not help others given the pain she went through because it's too much stress on her back.   

It's not necessarily "stress."

It's just that after assimilating, being around other TSs can bring back all the old feelings we're trying to forget. It's not meant as a slap against TSs, it's not "I got mine so see ya," it's just painful to be amoungst all this stuff again when you're trying to pretend to yourself that it never happened so you CAN move on and put this stuff behind you.

There's a lure to places like this, places of unconditional support, a temptation to only deal with people who "understand." But it's all too easy to get stuck here, to circle yourself in an artificial bubble of other TSs and "the community" instead of going out and living your life as an assimilated, ordinary woman.

It's difficult to put into words exactly how this person was.  Obviously we have to move on with our lives, but to claim that they shouldn't have to be accepted and to say leave trans issues to next wave of people with GID is rather selfish.  That would be like a rape victim getting over the trauma and saying she shoudn't have to deal with anymore and she should not feel inclined to help other rape victims.  I just think it is a bit of a cop out to say, that since I never felt trans and have more in common with genetic then transwomen, that I am not going to do anything to help make it easier for other and only help those who have the exact same issues as me.  That is lame. True, it's no one's job to be super ultra hero, but it's funny that she thinks nothing applies to her because she doesn't identify 100% with the community.  It makes you sound like an ass when you say the only reason trans people are out in society is because they couldn't pass or want attention.  To use the excuse that Straight genetic women can be allies to trans too, so I don't have to come out is nothing but an excuse.  If I woke up one day and didn't have Cerebral Palsy and I met someone else that was upset about their disability, do I just pretend I never had issues at one point in time to try to help them out?  Do I just be the "normal" person so I don't have to deal with the pain of what having CP is like?  yeah I could still help them without disclosing myself, but I would have a greater impact on the person if they knew I went through somewhat of a similar situation. 

It's hard for trans people to tell the cisgendered people and have them understand.  Yes anyone can help, but when more and more people that know what something is like first hand put their efforts to correcting the attitudes that go along with a certain dispostion.  It's better for everybody.  What if no one came out about HIV and tried to help others who have HIV?  This person claimed that being known as trans only hurts your position in society that you are really your target sex, but by not telling (when appropriate of course) is just the same.  Society is going to say "oh well you knew it was wrong and that is why you don't tell anybody."  It's a two way street.  You are going to have to defend yourself no matter what, even on non trans things.  I have to defend myself with my CP and any other issues anyone else has they will have to defend for themselves too.  It never ends, so she is in for a rude awakening.   

I know I did not say all of this in the opening post because I was trying to get the main point across without having to write a book, but obviously I had to tell it all.   

I'm confused.

She wishes she could be more than a "girl with an asterisk at the end," seems to want to disassociate with the TG community altogether, and publicly posts videos of these thoughts? I think there's more going on here than either she's letting on or you're interpreting, Lauren.