/sigh

I don't have patience to fight the good fight today.

Quote from: devi ever on January 06, 2010, 07:34:14 PM
I don't have patience to fight the good fight today.

Yea, my apologies. I've been getting snippy. I'm just a bit frustrated with some of the things time and distance from the "community" have shown me. But taking it out on people here isn't going to help anyone much.

Quote from: Marie731 on January 06, 2010, 07:53:07 PM
Yea, my apologies. I've been getting snippy. I'm just a bit frustrated with some of the things time and distance from the "community" have shown me. But taking it out on people here isn't going to help anyone much.

No worries.  I'm off my hormones because of surgery in two weeks plus I've been dealing with misogynistic a-holes elsewhere on the internet today, so I'm kinda wound up too. 

Quote from: Marie731 on January 06, 2010, 07:29:18 PM
I think Amanda did that herself by proclaiming herself a "transgender woman" in a press release, rather than just... being Amanda.

I'm not sure that Ms Simpson had a choice about what was in the press release. The first of any ethnicity or gender is likely to be identified as such in these types of appointments; first woman astronaut, first African American president, first openly gay congressperson, etc.

Z

First, I don't watch David Letterman or Conan O'Brian because I consider their shows to be dumb television. Dumb or not, from what I gather here the joke was in bad taste and offensive to the trans community. Now I understand that late night talk shows are designed around humor and satire and they will poke fun of lots of different people and groups. However, some parody is healthy and some is not. Due to the nature of the news and the style of the talk shows, I could see the necessity of the talk shows making some joke about Amanda Simpson or gender variant people but it should be done in a way that people can laugh with us and not at us. Better taste humor would have been a quick show where the host brings on say four highly attractive women but one of the four is a transwoman and seeing if the audience can guess. They could have thrown another spin of humor in it say and instead of the guy running away he then runs into say Sarah Palin or some other political character and then chooses Simpson over them. I'm sure the script writers could have come up with some funny idea that would be entertaining while not damaging at the same time. Sadly, they don't seem to care.

Another point is a lot of jokes about transwomen in general are a form of misogyny. The same applies about non-trans women as well. Mass media and entertainment simply don't show women in the best possible light in most cases. A simple example is how a commercial advertising a product will show a close-up view of a girl's chest and then zoom out and eventually zoom in on the product she is holding. People say that "sex sells" but who is it directed for and at who's expense? You won't see the camera zoom in on a man's crotch and then to the product. There is clearly a severe imbalance here. American culture is excessively focused more on what a woman looks like than other qualities and it should be plainly obvious to anyone in any public place who may witness any type of advertisement featuring women. This is already de-humanizing women to mere objects of sexual attraction instead of whole people.

When it comes to transwomen in the media and advertisement, it is even more extreme. If you see a transwoman on some TV series or movie, she is not likely to be a character who works a normal job and does relatively normal things in the context of the film. No, she will be a sex worker at a Las Vegas 1-star motel who ends up getting murdered by gangbanger macho men.

The sad reality is that the people have the power but fail to use it. The best that trans people can do is speak out and try to educate others but perhaps that will only go so far. The bulk of the problem that I see is that very few people out there derive the bulk of their understandings from direct experience. This means something that is natural in the world and not artificial. A workplace who witnesses a transwoman co-worker's transition from male-to-female on the job is an example of direct experience. How much the workplace respects that person will also depend on what other experiences they have with trans issues most of which will be from artificial experience. Artificial experience is that which is based on second-hand knowledge or even pure fiction. An example is when that workplace turns on their TV sets and sees a transperson on some TV show. They are seeing an artificially and technologically created example of a transperson and filtered dialogue of trans issues but nothing direct.

It frightens me that we even have to educate people but we have to because nobody hardly has any direct experiences. People are so damn plugged into mass media and mass entertainment, constant television, music, and consumption driven by advertisement that people don't even know anything about anything. Maybe I'm sounding dystopian but it is true. If people as a whole shut off their TV sets and actually tried to experience the world directly and in an interactive manner instead of second-hand or through a third-party filter we would have a lot more understanding and likely equality. Millions of Americans "think" they know about "->-bleeped-<-s" while not having met a single one in their entire lives, gathering all of their "information" from TV, gossip, and grocery store tabloid stands, while not once in their life picking up a book and reading about it. Sad.

Thank you Britney... I hope you don't mind me linking to your post.  You said a lot that's been on my mind lately, but didn't have the energy to say myself.

fates bless you

Very much one more case of reinforcing how disgusting it would be to have sexy with a ->-bleeped-<-.   Very sad and very sick.  I am glad I don't watch Letterman either.

Kristi

Quote from: Britney_413 on January 06, 2010, 10:44:53 PM

It frightens me that we even have to educate people but we have to because nobody hardly has any direct experiences. People are so damn plugged into mass media and mass entertainment, constant television, music, and consumption driven by advertisement that people don't even know anything about anything. Maybe I'm sounding dystopian but it is true. If people as a whole shut off their TV sets and actually tried to experience the world directly and in an interactive manner instead of second-hand or through a third-party filter we would have a lot more understanding and likely equality. Millions of Americans "think" they know about "->-bleeped-<-s" while not having met a single one in their entire lives, gathering all of their "information" from TV, gossip, and grocery store tabloid stands, while not once in their life picking up a book and reading about it. Sad.

I unplugged my TV in 1993. Among the best things I ever did in reclaiming my life and thoughts. Yes, Britney, you're quite right about people not having direct experiences. Too many people live vicarious lives, caring more about a character on TV than someone in their own family or a friend. I haven't watched Letterman in years, and am rather amazed that he still has an audience or appeal. I find his brand of humor, if we can call it that, to be immature and belittling, especially towards women.

Z

Great posts by devi and britany.
I shudder at the thought of people sitting at home watching the late show, people who have no previous opinion on the TG community to only have one suggested to them in the form of a childish joke.
And to then walk down the street and bump into one of these highly suggestible folk.

Speaking from the ages here, regarding late night TV hosts/comedians/society commentators, it is just like any other popular medium; ratings are the controling, in fact, the ONLY factor in determining the quality of the product. And product is exactly what TV is, existing only to serve as an advertising delivery system, as deadly to society as smoking is to the individual.

Of course time change, and with it, public taste, and the response by the media to satiate that taste. I have the years to have experienced Jack Paar, Johnny Carson, Jay Leno, now Letterman, O'Brien and the others. Parr was the most outwardly and unashamedly intellectual, and very mercurial. He had the most interesting guests. Carson was the funniest, and was so while rarely issuing disparaging remarks based on class bigotry or personal attacks. Leno less so. Letterman and the others have shown little in the way of exhibiting common decency toward others; the cheap laugh always pays the best while satisfying the least.

Letter-writing and E-Mail complaints should be sent by those that are sufficiently outraged, but understand, they serve as signs that their programming is doing what they want it to do. Somewhat more effective would be to contact some of the sponsors of the Late Show and ask why they are underwriting this hurtful, stupid and bigoted appeal to the lowest levels of society. And if they are honest (and they are not!) they would respond that they do so because it sells. That is all they care about.

SusanKG 

I thought it was funny.  Getting offended at comedians is silly.  They will say anything to get a laugh.  It's not about being offensive or not offensive.  It's just about laughs.  No big deal.  Now if Sean Hannity or Glen Beck did something like this, it might be a little different.

yep...had another look at the clip and i tried really really hard to get mad but i couldn't it just made me laugh again.... 

Quote from: joe
I've been a fan of David Letterman for decades and was reasonably impressed with his handling of his recent adultery scandal. But this insulting bit of anti-trans middle school assclownery

uuuuummmm....joe?

That's what Letterman IS

that's what Letterman has ALWAYS been

That's what you are a self described "fan" of (when it's directed at people it's okay to make fun of in your eyes - like rednecks and religious nuts and republican politicians and their children among others)

Quote
is really f---ing disappointing.

UPDATE: For those who don't see anything wrong about this, consider how it reinforces the age-old "tricked by a transwoman" claim that so many hate crimes defendants use, such as in the recent case of murdered teen Jorge Mercado. Aside from being sophomoric and a sitcom cliche, running off the stage as if about to vomit from the news that Amanda Simpson is trans is just not the sort of entertainment we should give a pass.

Again - sophomoric is all Letterman does and all he's EVER done.

I don't know who he thinks he's talking about. Mow if someone had made a joke like this while hosting the Emmys for instance, then I think complaints might have traction.

but LETTERMAN? Please.

The only reason there's a controversy here is because folks are suddenly pissy when it's THERE ox being gored.

Bet you sweet bippy Joe and the rest were quite placid when Letterman was implying Palin's 15 year old daughter was a slut.

Quote from: SarahFaceDoom on January 07, 2010, 02:20:01 AM
I thought it was funny.  Getting offended at comedians is silly.  They will say anything to get a laugh.  It's not about being offensive or not offensive.  It's just about laughs.  No big deal.  Now if Sean Hannity or Glen Beck did something like this, it might be a little different.

I'm sorry but personally I don't enjoy being the butt of someones joke trans related or otherwise. There are usually two levels of communication happening in most comedians acts, they basically use the power of humour to express opinions. They can be hugely and subtly influential. It's one of the things I love about them when done right.
There are guidelines in place on the letterman show, no jokes about religion, homosexuals and disabled people. So trans doesn't fall under LGBT when it's convenient? Yet we are labelled as just that (gay) by a large portion of the public.
I believe the worlds general opinion of TG is still quite young and impressionable by laughing off such comments made by letterman and his gang only encourages social ignorance and pre-judging. By standing up to it we can basically say "hey we are people too not freaks, how about you learn the facts before judging?".
But we're all entitled to our subjective opinions so you're right we're wasting our time complaining really.

Quote from: Muffin on January 07, 2010, 02:50:27 AM
I'm sorry but personally I don't enjoy being the butt of someones joke trans related or otherwise.

No one does, but that's what modern comedians do - and hardly anyone is safe, some of us less so than others.

Quote
There are usually two levels of communication happening in most comedians acts, they basically use the power of humour to express opinions. They can be hugely and subtly influential. It's one of the things I love about them when done right.
There are guidelines in place on the letterman show, no jokes about religion, homosexuals and disabled people.

Right. How nice.

I'm a Christian - fair game. (no jokes about religion maybe, but religious...?)
I'm a conservative (libertarian actually but far to the right of Letterman)- easy and inviting target
I'm fat - bring it on!
I am a white person of modest income living in the south - Mississippi no less - JACKPOT!!!!

I'm SO impressed that the moron has SOME standards. but what comfort is that to those the standards don't cover?

As far as being "done right" - even the smart ones like George Carlin (whom I LOVED before he got so bitter) have no problem taking shots at people they don't respect - and for most in the audience as long as they also don't respect the target it's all good.

One of the commenters at PHB actually came out and said he was perfectly cool with Letterman bashing Palin because "she kinda had it coming" but now he's offended.

All this does is reveal that those who cry out now are not being intellectually consistent unless they are offended when ANY person or people group is unfairly mocked - even the ones they themselves don't agree with or respect.

Why should Letterman care if such people are pissed?

Quote
So trans doesn't fall under LGBT when it's convenient? Yet we are labelled as just that (gay) by a large portion of the public.

As an aside, I'm certainly on the side of the discussion that thinks it does us no good to be seen by the public as just a variant of gay.

Quote
I believe the worlds general opinion of TG is still quite young and impressionable by laughing off such comments made by letterman and his gang only encourages social ignorance and pre-judging. By standing up to it we can basically say "hey we are people too not freaks, how about you learn the facts before judging?".
But we're all entitled to our subjective opinions so you're right we're wasting our time complaining really.

I'm coming at this not so much from the angle of "laugh it off" as I am from the angle of "what? you are surprised Letterman is an insensitive bozo?"

What fascinates me is all the people who profess to have been a fan of Letterman while he was being an ass to OTHER people but now suddenly realize he's an ass.

As for the joke itself...I "get" it, and I think on the whole spectrum of entertainment that it is such a very trite and typical gag that it's not worth protesting not because it doesn't offend but because it's a tired bit that's been done 100,000 times and NOW it's worth an uproar?

To me it's not at all like those DJ's in Sacramento that got pressured into reversing course because what they were doing wasn't an example of the same old gag like this was.

what Letterman did was, essentially, a "blonde joke"

No more original than a gag about women having PMS or about a guy being lazy or about a kid being bratty or about an old person being a bad driver.

In THAT sense, it's a poor target for outrage, IMO.

Quote
I'm sorry but personally I don't enjoy being the butt of someones joke trans related or otherwise. There are usually two levels of communication happening in most comedians acts, they basically use the power of humour to express opinions. They can be hugely and subtly influential. It's one of the things I love about them when done right.

I'm sorry but you can't just pick and choose what is fair ground for comedians to do material on. 

What comedians do you like?

Get used to it folks.  And enjoy it.  For these are the good old days.

With the resignation of key democrats in the house and senate the writing is on the wall for 2010 and is starting to look grim for 2012.

The conservative ultra right will hold sway over this land and will begin to undo all the good that has been done to now.

I wouldn't be surprised if in 2013 President Palin introduces legislation to outlaw cross dressing of any sort and, after having "proved" that transsexuality is a lie, require that all post op ->-bleeped-<-s  have reversal surgery at their expense.  And force heterosexual re-education for all those who are homo.  Neighborhood watches and a toll free tip line with a reward will also be set up.

At least right now they're just laughing.  The lynchings will happen soon enough.  That will make for great comedy, trust me.

-Sandy(very cynical today)

I'm really sad how many trans people find this as acceptable behavior.

If the discrimination and prejudice we face wasn't so widespread and blatant, maybe one could find this humorous.  No one knows how the majority of people took this without asking them but it seems the audience found funny Kalter's reaction and it's very possible that was because they could relate.

I didn't find it funny.  I'm sure Letterman didn't find it funny when his reputation was being dragged through the mud either.

Brendan Behan once quipped that "There is no such thing as bad publicity except your own obituary."  I think he happens to be right.  The best way to handle this is to turn Letterman off, and let him know we have.

Kristi