ok a while back I talked to this dude on FB, and he asked me.. "so on your profile, it says you are male, is that a mistake?"

I didnt know what to say, and I wasnt gonna say "no I'm a girl" and I dont want to explain to everyone who asks me that .. "ok WELL i am technically female, BUT I'm a dude".. because for one thing, they dont need to know that, and another.. I find that when you tell them that most of the time they automatically think of you as a chick anyway'

So I just told him that I was a guy.  I just said stuff like.. "yea people always think i'm a girl, and my voice is so friggin prepubesent sounding, I don't even bother correcting people when they call me she anymore"

anyway.. I saw him in person.. and it was so cool to know that I was hanging with a guy WHO THOUGHT OF ME AS A GUY not a transguy, not a girl boy freakish thing, and not a butch lesbian chick.

ANYWAY.. I told my mom this.. and she said that it wasnt good for me to say that to him, I'm gonna get myself into trouble, she said that it was lying to tell him that, she said that it was deceptive of me. She said that once I'm on T then its not lying.. I told her.. "What is it that makes someone a male or female? Their body doesn't make them that" I told her.. "what was I supposed to tell him, tell him that I'm a girl, just because my body is female? tell him my trans life story when he really doesn't need to know all of that about me?"

any opinions on this?

I would have just said I was female.

They aren't asking for your gender, they want your sex. Although, I'm not sure where the line is where you can say "Yeah, I'm a guy" and get away with it.

Um, I would never tell anyone that I am female just because they think that sex and gender always have to correlate, I don't care what they think they are hearing(that I am a completely biological male) that's not my concern. All they need to know is that I am male, because I am whether I am biologically male doesn't matter, nor does it matter if I am on hormones or not. If you pass to them, and they accept you no questions asked at a late blooming bio-male, nothing else matters, it isn't lying.

Simple: Your mom doesn't get it. Do whatever you want.

Quote from: Hazuki Heartwood on January 22, 2010, 09:46:20 PM
I would have just said I was female.

They aren't asking for your gender, they want your sex. Although, I'm not sure where the line is where you can say "Yeah, I'm a guy" and get away with it.

Ok so maybe they were asking for his sex, but what difference does that make?  Elijah has the right to not tell someone he's biologically female, and the person asking isn't entitled to knowing that.  The line where you can get away with saying you're a guy is if the people around you accept that.

You're not lying.  You're a guy in every way besides biological, which unless you're sleeping with someone, has no relevance to them.  I think your mom is just trying to look out for you, but I don't agree w/ her

I've struggled with this a lot. I tried every combination I could think of, and the only thing cisgender people can understand is that I'm a shy sensitive male or closeted gay (haha close enough, I'm a lesbian LOL). If I say I'm a female within a male body they think I'm gay or that I've done HRT or that I cross-dress, if I say I'm bigender they think I'm crazy, and if I use the word "transgender" or "transsexual" they fly away in no time.

As long as no law requires you to describe your anatomy, you're fine saying whatever you want, but you should expect some people feeling uneasy or unfriendly after they find out. So, the issue is: how can you say who you truly are while making friends too?

The situation becomes even more complex in dating sites where saying who you are means your profile isn't going to be seen by those searching... At such sites the anatomy is important, you know:) I've seen some TG people having such profiles though, and I wonder how successful they're.

I actually think that it proves that your mom loves you and cares for you, like I said in your other mom complains thread

Look what she said here: "When you are on T, it is not a lie."

And look what she said last time "You don't look like a boy/guy."

If she didn't accept what you are doing, she'd just said you are lying!!! But what she said here is different. She also said "It will get you into trouble" but not later when you are on T.

Translation of your mother to simple words: "Right now you don't pass so well so saying you are a guy can get you into trouble, once you are on T you will start passing better so you won't get into trouble for saying that because your appearance will change and fit the guy type"

It would have felt better to you if she didn't refer to it as "lying" but just said it that way but I am sure this is precisely what she meant when she said that, she just lacked the ability to completely understand what you are feeling about it and it came out wrong.

Parents, friends.. they all can be super annoying one day, saying just the wrong thing, but they can very well mean the very right thing.
Try to talk to your mom a bit about it, tell her that even though you might not quite look like one yet, inside you what you feel is a guy and that is what important and if she can try to understand that. Tell her it bothers you the way she says things but know she means well.

QuoteIt is a tragicomic fact that our proper upbringing has become an ally of the secret police. We do not know how to lie. The "Tell the truth!" imperative drummed into us by our mamas and papas functions so automatically that we feel ashamed of lying even to secret policemen during an interrogation. It is simpler for us to argue with him or insult him (which makes no sense at whatever) than to lie to his face (which is the only thing to do).

   -- Milan Kundera, The Unbearable Lightness of Being


Who cares if it's a lie? Whoever said you shouldn't lie? God didn't -- he said you shouldn't "bear false witness against thy neighbor." That's a whole different story.

Now, I don't happen to think it is necessarily a lie (that's not my business to tell you), but I certainly do think your mother's notion of what makes a man or a woman are unfortunate patriarchal constructs that ought to be tossed aside and replaced with something that reflect more closely the lived experience rather than reductive tests based on physiological parameters. What the replacement might be ... das ist ein zu weites Feld.

In short, are you a man? Yes? Good. How about we leave it at that?

The way I see it, I do not go to all the trouble of presenting as just another guy only to spoil it for everyone and bow to some pesky technicality of being biologically female.

Frankly, I think it's great that he's thought of you as a guy so far. That way even if he "finds out" then he'll probably find it easier to just go back to thinking of you as a guy again. Plus the more people that see you as a genuine guy, I think the more others will start to have more reinforcers of the fact that you really are a guy - something kind of like a domino effect or chain reaction (I'm sure there will always be exceptions, but generally speaking).

Aren't mom's great? 

As SilverFang says, your mom doesn't get it.

Really though, why should she?

You mom knew you when you were nothing more than an upset stomach and a funny feeling.

Personally, I take lying as being deliberately deceptive for undeserved gain.

I know a girl who had a really large nose. She eventually had a nose job and now has a rather small, cute nose. She said that some guy who was trying to pick her up, complimented her on her nose.

In all honesty, should she have told him about the nose job?

Some might reply that the two are not the same.

Yes they are.

It's only a lie if you think it's a lie.

A "lie" is not the same thing as "omitting some facts".

Personally, I would have been even more vauge. When asked if there was a mistake on my profile, I would have answered "No".

I met someone online I have been talking to regularly via Skype.  I am male.  Period.  The only way I would tell him otherwise would be if it turned into a relationship headed for intimacy (highly unlikely).

He knows I was married, but I have avoided all pronouns in reference to my ex.  He assumes I was married to a F, though he personally hasn't used pronouns with regards to asking about my ex, either.

It's not a lie to say you're male, because you are.  Even if not on T, if you are in the process of coming out to family and friends, and are asking (or about to ask) for correct pronouns, then I see no reason to tell new people you meet your whole life story.

Jay

I simply would have replied, initially, with "no, no mistake" and nothing else.
He didn't ask what's in your pants, the question was whether there was a mistake involved in the male tag on your profile.

Your mum's concerned, doesn't understand your situation (and is not able to because she's not in it), and want you to be safe. I think that's the driving force behind her poorly worded and not to thought out comment.

Mind you, I would have explained my situation to him.
'Specially before meeting, face to face.
All those I call "friends" know about my situation and don't treat me any different for it.. even to the point where when I complain about fibro symptoms I get a "don't be such a f-ing girl about it" type response... same as they go at each other.

Quote from: Teknoir on January 23, 2010, 06:52:41 AM

A "lie" is not the same thing as "omitting some facts".

Damm. that is exactly the point.

My long winded response....never mind. 

When you omit facts in order to deceive someone, you are lying through omission.
But if you're simply not mentioning that which doesn't matter/isn't relevant, there's no deception involved.

Quote from: Miniar on January 23, 2010, 08:02:02 AM
When you omit facts in order to deceive someone, you are lying through omission.
But if you're simply not mentioning that which doesn't matter/isn't relevant, there's no deception involved.

That's undoubtedly true.

But in this case, he's just being friends with the guy.

Think the maxim holds perfectly.

Quote from: Miniar on January 23, 2010, 08:02:02 AM
When you omit facts in order to deceive someone, you are lying through omission.
But if you're simply not mentioning that which doesn't matter/isn't relevant, there's no deception involved.

true.dat 

I'm thinking this slips into the second catagory.

Though if he were after an intimate relationship with this guy, then that's another matter. Or a least, something to clarify sooner rather than later.

I think the parent has badly worded their concern, but it's a valid concern. They don't want some nutjob from online beating the crap out of their child because of some transphobia. It's understandable. They don't see their son as "passing", so they assume nobody else does either.

Quote from: Kvall on January 22, 2010, 10:03:37 PM
In all relevant ways to being friends with someone, you are male. I do not feel that you lied whatsoever. It's not like you said, "Oh yeah, I have XY chromosomes and testes pumping testosterone through my veins! Yeah!" You said you were a guy, which is true.

Your mom is probably worried that people may become upset with you if they find out that you're trans and you didn't tell them so. Yes, this is a possibility, but she is wrong to place the blame on you. It's not your fault if someone is transphobic. You're not responsible for educating them. You're not obligated to tell them your personal medical situation. And if they are transphobic, the potential for a negative reaction is there if you intentionally come out to them, too!

This. 

Most cisgendered people just don't get it but as much as we like to educate them sometimes its not our responsibility to.  I can understand their reactions because before I knew I was trans I felt similarly, because I knew nothing about trans or trans issues.  The public does need to be educated but its not like our crusade or anything.  I don't think its anybody's business what genitals someone has, its very depressing that its such a huge deal. 

It would have been fine to say you're a guy and leave it at that. But to back it up by saying people always think you're a girl, etc, that gives implication that you are a bio-guy, which is lying, and if the truth ever comes out, your mother is right. It WILL get you into a load of trouble. Hedging is different than lying, and although I understand why you said what you said, I cannot approve of it.

Quote from: Alessandro on January 23, 2010, 11:11:58 AMI don't think its anybody's business what genitals someone has, its very depressing that its such a huge deal.

Seconded.