Two other threads got me thinking about the relationship between sexuality and self-acceptance.

A lot of gay people I have met tried to be straight for years before they were able to admit to themselves that they were gay. I had no such problem: I was utterly shocked to find that everyone else was right when they said I'd become interested in girls when I hit puberty. I had always figured I'd be into guys; since I was wrong about that, I figured that perhaps I was wrong about my gender identity, and I would "grow out of it." Well, that turned out to be totally wrong, but it took me another decade or so to realize it. So while heteronormativity delays gay people's self-acceptance about sexuality, it helped confim my sexuality while delaying my self-acceptance of my gender.

A lot of theories that classifiy trans people (e.g. from Harry Benjamin, Ray Blanchard, and Anne Vitale) totally ignore the effect of heteronormativity and homosexuality in trans people's lives. Instead, they typically suggest that sexuality and gender identity are correlated because of different underlying biological etiology. For example, Benjamin's scale didn't accept the existence of trans lesbians.

But experiences of trans people before puberty seem not to depend much at all on sexuality. (For examaple, see the other threads.) So I think that the difference between gay, bi, and straight trans people is different not because of different etiology, but because of heteronormativity. In the terms of my profession, heteronormativity breaks the symmetry between straight and gay trans people.

What do you think? How does this fit with your experience?

O.K.  I'll admit that a lot of what you've said is over my head, so I can't comment on your theory an academic level.  But ...

Since I'm attracted to men, I have to admit that my sexuality was one of the major factors that kept me from pursuing transition for so long.  After all, I'd be cutting myself off from straight men - there's 90% out the window - and gay men are notoriously phallo-centric (having no dick could be a problem) so that left me with bisexuals and gay transmen.  Not a huge pool to pick from.  (And yes, I do realize that not all gay men put a higher premium on the "package" than on the whole package.  But it's more prevalent than most other communities.)

But eventually I realized that I just couldn't be the woman in a relationship - that I had sabotaged every potential relationship I'd ever had, for that reason - and that I was at least as likely to spend the rest of my life alone if I didn't transition as if I did.  Besides, how can you have a meaningful relationship with someone if you feel you have to hide the core of your being from them?

That was almost excactly what I was getting at. Realizing how much I was sabotaging relationships, and how much the notion of being someone's boyfriend or husband repelled me, even as I really wanted to have a girlfriend or wife, was one of the main things that made it clear I needed to transition.

The one other part I'm interested in was whether being attracted to men made you question your male gender identity, since men "aren't supposed to" be attracted to men. Did you feel that at all, or not at all, or not sure?



And I'm sorry about my impenetrable prose. I can't help it!   

I want to try to answer this because it's interesting, even though my sexuality is a bit enigmatic.  I am positive that had I been strongly attracted to guys, I would definitely have dealt with the gender issues much earlier, because aligning myself to heteronormativity, with the hope of not disappointing my fam or upsetting anybody, was very important for me.  If I was unambiguously gay that would have gone out the window immediately and I am sure I would have dealt with the gender stuff at the same time.

As it turned out, my sexuality always was very ambivalent.  I wasn't much attracted to men or women, but I could at least see and appreciate the beauty of women, so I thought I could make that work.  Then when things got physical, I was repulsed.  I remember my first kiss, there were no sparks- just me thinking, omg is she ever going to stop??  Somehow that didn't convince me to give it up lol.. Don't ask.  It really took about 6 months of marriage, so 10 years+ later, for me to finally realize okay so girls just don't do it for me and I'm not going to be able to make this "man" business work either- the gender issues were becoming totally impossible to suppress.  I still would have tried anything to keep the marriage alive, again striving for the privileges of heteronormativity, also my wife was my best friend and I didn't want to lose her from my life.  The best thing she ever did for me (and herself) was leave me.  I can't explain how thankful I am for that.

Now, freed from the vain pursuit of a heteronormative lifestyle, life is good.  Incidentally, I feel more attracted to men and I have zero attraction for women, it seems.  I am not going to really know for sure until I get my first kiss from a man if I'm hetero.  I mean men are def attractive, but forgive me for not giving the benefit of the doubt to my understanding of my own sexuality, my track record is suspect.

So, yes I think you probably have something with these ideas.

In the other life I was hetero.  I have been married three times to women, and had very few intimacies with men.  I figured because of that I was a lesbian. But a friend and I were talking about sexuality and she stated that she felt that I was very much straight as a woman.  I asked why and she said that I very much like men by my attraction to them.

And as I looked at my life up till now I am very much straight, irregardless of the gender I presented.  Does that mean that I would not be attracted to another woman?  No, because it is about the person. not the gender.

I would say that I was affected by the perception of others that affected my sexuality.  Now it is my perception of my sexuality.

I've always suspected it had an effect. Even though I have a bisexual orientation, the development of it was hindered in some ways. I liked girls early on and when the surge of hormones at puberty brought an interest in boys, I welcomed the change. I clung to it as proof I was normal. I liked boys, so I was a girl after all. And all that remained was to figure out how to do it right. (Be a girl that is.) Puberty also brought a lot of thoughts and fantasies about women, but I was taught that that was an abomination. I felt dirty and disgusted with myself each time I looked at a female. And given that I had difficulty even securing a friendship with a girl, it seemed a remote and futile possibility anyway.

But I was turned on by the power play between myself and a boy. So, everything suddenly became simple. The problem wasn't that I wasn't a girl. The problem was that I just wasn't doing it right. I slipped into denial as my gender slipped below my consciousness. I put all my efforts into fixing myself. It was never that I wanted to be a boy anyway. I just wanted what every kid wants - to be normal, to be accepted. All my efforts centered on proving to boys and myself that I was a girl, that I was normal. After all, my sexuality proved I was, didn't it? And I fell into a coma as far as gender.

I never embraced my masculinity at all. It just came through unwittingly and at inopportune times. By the time knowledge of myself resurfaced in my late teens and early twenties, I was too invested and preoccupied in my sexuality. After all, it was my only claim to legitimacy.

I just felt I should point out that heteronormativity has eight(!) syllables.

And isn't the human capacity for denial amazing, especially in pursuit of an eight syllable word?

Actually, as a pansexual, I found myself trying to "overcome" transsexuality because when it comes to those I feel an attraction to, their genital area is "just plumbing" to me and so my genital area should also be "just plumbing" to me.
As long as I just did whatever was "me" to do, action wize, I would be me, and the hardware wouldn't be important....

Didn't work.

Today, I have the occasional moments of shame over the hypocrisy of stating that other people's genitals are just plumbing to me while mine are this big deal that I "need" to have corrected.
And yet the emotions can not change.

I can say I might have handled transition different if I had been straight or gay, but I can't say in what way there would have been a difference because I'd have to experience it in order to draw an accurate comparison, however. So I can't really answer the question in the subject. 

I've always been heterosexual - sort of.  As a male, I was strongly attracted to women.  During puberty, with the raging hormones, my gender issues took a back seat.  I just couldn't figure out how to be a man.  Still, I was always attracted to women and would get a strong physical response when seeing a woman who I found attractive.  I never had that response when looking at men even though I thought I'd rather be gay than gender-confused.  I married two women (sequentially) and was a cross-dresser when I was married.  In between the first and second marriage I looked into transitioning but I wasn't ready then (1984).

Since becoming single again I again started dealing with my gender issues.  Once I started hormone therapy, I was astounded that I became hetero again.  I still find women very attractive but have no sexual interest in them at all.  To my amazement, I find myself attracted to men, even getting a brand-new-to-me physical response when I see a man I find attractive.  Isn't life strangely grand?

My attraction to women when I was male was heteronormative, right?  But if I had been attracted to men early on, I would have considered myself gay and probably a flamer (if I was brave enough).  That would have delayed my dealing with my gender issues, too.

Your theory is good, Alyssa.  I think one's sexual orientation can affect how soon or late we deal with our gender issues, but there are a whole raft of other factors, too.

So the short answer is: I don't know.

- Kate

Quote from: Alyssa M. on January 25, 2010, 12:18:47 PM

The one other part I'm interested in was whether being attracted to men made you question your male gender identity, since men "aren't supposed to" be attracted to men. Did you feel that at all, or not at all, or not sure?

No, that idea never crossed my mind.  But then, I have an uncle who is gay, so I was familiar with the concept from a very young age.

Obviously I wasn't  sexually attracted to anyone before puberty. I thought I was a girl, played with girls, and thought adults were blind or dumb when they said I wasn't a girl. I didn't like boys at all!

About the same time as the onset of puberty, my view of boys started to change and when I was 13 a boy I REALLY liked kissed me passionately and I knew I was in deep shyte because my feelings were perfectly normal for a teenage girl! That's what started my open rebellion and absolute refusal to accept my 'assigned gender'.

That was the 1960's and it was REALLY hard to explain to doctors the difference between my sense of my own gender and my attraction to boys. Homosexuality was not acceptable but transsexualism was unknown.

I always felt like I was bi since as long as I can remember so when I lost my virginity with my first girlfriend I decided to balance things up a bit. I tried both well.... ok I had to try both a few times to figure it all out >_> but.... basically I came to the conclusion that, with women it felt biologically normal everything fit and worked more or less but I just felt disconnected emotionally like I was going through the motions. With guys it was always very quick and based around the physical which was a huge put off but I'm sure if I was with a guy more romantically I still wouldn't of been interested, there were a few things they do that I'm just not into and yeah the me problem. I explained this to my psychiatrist and he understood, basically I wanted to be with a man but not in a guy on guy way.

My friends at the time would make jokes about me being interested in guys and it bothered me as I didn't identify as a gay man or as a man fullstop. Despite how much my friends would hate the mention I should thank them for helping to push me in the right direction. thanks guys lol!
Have you ever felt a special feeling while out at a party like you know this evening will change your life and you'll always remember it? I remember that moment related to this it was the part of my life when things began to seem so much clearer. The party I had my first trans conversation with a gay guy.. who told me of a place where TG people hang out etc. Everything changed.

I like others was always attracted to women. When I went through puberty, I had the raging male hormones that screamed for girls. I never thought that I was gay in anyway. I knew that I had a gender issue. I always wanted to do girl things and be sort of girly. I think that is why I did have very close frineds that were girls growing up.

I got married to a wonderful women and pushed my gender issues in the closet. Although, I dressed every chance I got. She was always aware of this. I am still married and have two beutiful daughters. Although, as I got older I am 36 now. I progressed more and more with the feelings that I wanted to have that sexual experiance with a man to fulfill my women experiance in full. I did fulfill this experiance in the last two years. Before I did, I was at a party dressed and met this guy that for the first time I felt very attracted to him. We talked many times after this and I just knew that this was the person I wanted to share my experiance with. I know that I was cheating. I was married. I just gave into the temptation. I felt like it was the most wonderful sexual experiance for me. If I knew prior to that experiance that I would have that kind of connection. I may have tried earlier in life.

I still have a very strong emotional bond with women. ( My wife in paticular ) Over the last two years I have really enjoyed the sexual encounters with the males.

Quote from: Jen on January 25, 2010, 02:06:41 PM
I want to try to answer this because it's interesting, even though my sexuality is a bit enigmatic.  I am positive that had I been strongly attracted to guys, I would definitely have dealt with the gender issues much earlier, because aligning myself to heteronormativity, with the hope of not disappointing my fam or upsetting anybody, was very important for me.  If I was unambiguously gay that would have gone out the window immediately and I am sure I would have dealt with the gender stuff at the same time.

As it turned out, my sexuality always was very ambivalent.  I wasn't much attracted to men or women, but I could at least see and appreciate the beauty of women, so I thought I could make that work.  Then when things got physical, I was repulsed.  I remember my first kiss, there were no sparks- just me thinking, omg is she ever going to stop??  Somehow that didn't convince me to give it up lol.. Don't ask.  It really took about 6 months of marriage, so 10 years+ later, for me to finally realize okay so girls just don't do it for me and I'm not going to be able to make this "man" business work either- the gender issues were becoming totally impossible to suppress.  I still would have tried anything to keep the marriage alive, again striving for the privileges of heteronormativity, also my wife was my best friend and I didn't want to lose her from my life.  The best thing she ever did for me (and herself) was leave me.  I can't explain how thankful I am for that.

Now, freed from the vain pursuit of a heteronormative lifestyle, life is good.  Incidentally, I feel more attracted to men and I have zero attraction for women, it seems.  I am not going to really know for sure until I get my first kiss from a man if I'm hetero.  I mean men are def attractive, but forgive me for not giving the benefit of the doubt to my understanding of my own sexuality, my track record is suspect.

So, yes I think you probably have something with these ideas.

My experience is pretty similar. I still have some attraction to women, but I'm not always sure where it comes from, or where it's going. I also never married, but for the most part the rest could be written by me. Thank you for expressing it so well.