Yeah.  But without a voice, one you K8 (and my very white mother) helped American of African decent obtain, then in a political sense, you don't exist. If you don't exist, then further actions don't count.

I've got a suggestion for those of you that want to dedicate your lives to transgender activism.  Get yourselves on the streets & start fighting for your rights instead of BS'ing about it on some trans forum.  You may actually get some real results by putting yourselves out there rather than being sitting on your butt at home bullsh&tting about what you want others to do for you.

I read all the boards on this site, & I also find it entertaining to see newbies (e.g. people that haven't even started to transition, those that are still talking about their first hormone shot in other boards, "passing" issues, their first "real life" outting, part-timers, people that still live as their birth sex in other words) talking about the lives of post-transition people.  I think it's kinda cute   I've got a suggestion for you too.  First live as your real gender for some years, wait until people perceive you & treat you as your target gender for many years, not as a "trans" person but as a woman or a man & then see if you want to be labelled as TG.  Until that time you've got no right to be speaking for those of us who have transitioned in all respects.  Why? because you don't know, you haven't been there, you haven't experienced it first hand so the best thing you can do is to keep your mouth shut.

Stay on track people.  That means to stick to the issues.  Just because someone is new or pre-transition does mot mean they are not entitled to their opinion.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on January 29, 2010, 10:21:35 PM
Stay on track people.  That means to stick to the issues.  Just because someone is new or pre-transition does mot mean they are not entitled to their opinion.

Opinions yes, talking like if you knew what you're talking about, no.

Get yourselves on the streets & start fighting for your rights instead of BS'ing about it on some trans forum.

Oddly enough I did, spent most of the 90s and early 00s doing it.  It was passed, was written into law here, reviewed and updated ten years later.  I'm happy we have such laws.  They are good for people here.  If you're not here, well, that's your problem.  I'm happy to tell anyone how we did it, how it was worded, how it was reviewed and how it was changed.  But my fight is over, I love it here, I ain't moving.  The rest of you, you are the future, you are it, you are on your own.

Quote from: tekla on January 29, 2010, 11:38:47 PM
Get yourselves on the streets & start fighting for your rights instead of BS'ing about it on some trans forum.

Oddly enough I did, spent most of the 90s and early 00s doing it.  It was passed, was written into law here, reviewed and updated ten years later.  I'm happy we have such laws.  They are good for people here.  If you're not here, well, that's your problem.  I'm happy to tell anyone how we did it, how it was worded, how it was reviewed and how it was changed.  But my fight is over, I love it here, I ain't moving.  The rest of you, you are the future, you are it, you are on your own.

Good then I can be on my own when I go let someone else be an activist. 

I never thought of myself as an activist, I just thought I was a citizen doing what good citizens are supposed to do, which is to work to make the government better, by helping it function for all the citizens.

Quote from: tekla on January 30, 2010, 12:06:12 AM
I never thought of myself as an activist, I just thought I was a citizen doing what good citizens are supposed to do, which is to work to make the government better, by helping it function for all the citizens.

I guess I'm a bad citizen then. And it's not that I'm not interested in politics, but I have my own life to lead and I don't want to dedicate it to something that I never chose or would have chosen to be apart of.

I did it out of the same cloth that I believe the Founders worked under - Enlightened Self Interest.

Quote from: Maggie Kay on January 29, 2010, 09:52:30 AM

I believe that once you are a transsexual you are always a transsexual.
Maggie

I have maintained that I am a woman with a transsexual condition.  Much the same way as I could be described as a woman with a diabetic condition.

So since I was born with this condition I was always "transsexual" the same way I would always be "diabetic".

The fact that I have transitioned puts the clinical aspects of my transsexual condition in my past, but does not erase my past.  I am still my children's father and will always be thus and would have it no other way.

People who knew me prior to my transition will always know me and I cannot erase their memories.  But to the people on the street, I am just another woman.  And that is the way it should be.

I am an activist for LGBT issues both in my community and my place of employment.  I hope that one day being trans, or whatever isn't a big deal anymore.

-Sandy

Quote from: Sandy on January 30, 2010, 11:52:37 AM
I have maintained that I am a woman with a transsexual condition.  Much the same way as I could be described as a woman with a diabetic condition.

So since I was born with this condition I was always "transsexual" the same way I would always be "diabetic".

The fact that I have transitioned puts the clinical aspects of my transsexual condition in my past, but does not erase my past.  I am still my children's father and will always be thus and would have it no other way.

People who knew me prior to my transition will always know me and I cannot erase their memories.  But to the people on the street, I am just another woman.  And that is the way it should be.

I am an activist for LGBT issues both in my community and my place of employment.  I hope that one day being trans, or whatever isn't a big deal anymore.

-Sandy

A very healthy way to look at this issue. I have been wrestling with how to look at it lately and I think Sandy's suits me best.

I'm not an activist in the traditional sense in that I don't go to parades or have stickers on my car or even mention my status unless it becomes necessary but I have written  two transsexual related books with my real name and photo on the cover so in that way I am. Cisgendered people who have read my first book have said to me that they understand better what transsexuals people are and now are much more accepting. In that way the books change minds. I didn't go out to be an activist. I just cope with life by writing.

I do have a few questions of those who took offense to this thread.

If some members here don't want to be associated with trans people, why are they here?

I can understand not wanting to be an activist but is it necessary to make it seem like activists are extremists doing harm? Especially when saying it on Susan's forum which is clearly the fruit of activism.

What ability to transition would we have if it weren't for activists?

Are the deep heterosexual stealth women here really advocating that there be no transgender rights movement?  Aren't they potential victims of hate crimes too? Do they want to be excluded from protection under the Matthew Shepard Law? Are they advocating against a trans inclusive ENDA?


Maggie

For the life of me I can't understand that in a democratic republic, participating in the political/legal/governing system somehow gets one labeled as an 'activist' like that's some kind of bad thing.  I thought that is what we are supposed to do?

Quote from: Maggie Kay on January 30, 2010, 12:54:38 PM
Susan's forum which is clearly the fruit of activism.

That may be true but I also think that Susan's forum is a support site above all.  I don't think it's a requirement to want to become an activist to be here, isn't it?  Or maybe I've been wrong for the 3 years I've been a member of this site.  I personally don't want anything to do with any kind of activism but at the same time I don't have anything against the people who get involved in it.  I only have issues with the people (whether they are activists or not) that presume to tell me what I need to do with my own life.  I hate to be politically assaulted & labelled as something I am not anymore.  That's what I'm against.

I'm also in agreement with Sandy.  I'm a woman with a transsexual past, I can't erase my past but I don't dwell on it either.  What I went through as a transsexual woman is over & it isn't part of my current status anymore.

I don't intend to speak for others but as for the "why I am here" question.  I think it's pretty obvious, habit mostly..I've been coming here for 3 years.  Also I'm here for other matters of support.  If I can help somebody by telling them about my experiences & make them feel that they're not alone at this, I think it's worth being here whether I still see myself as trans or not.

I agree with you, Blanche, in that I don't think any of us have the right to tell another how to live.  I also agree with Sandy.  As I finish my transition, I find that I just want to be the woman I should have been from the beginning.  That said, I will always have a past that is unlike most women's.  I don't expect to bring it up, but I don't expect to hide it, either.  I am what I am.

I don't see myself as an activist.  I have participated in a number of demonstrations and have done what I felt I could to further the rights of others, but it isn't the main focus of my life.  I expect to continue to work for gender identity rights.  I don't have to identify myself as trans to do that.  I am just another concerned citizen.

- Kate

I never thought there were any negative connotations with the word "activist".

As for all this TS terminology stuff, the way I see it, I don't self-identify as transexual unless I absolutely have to, for that matter I don't self identify as anything. If other people want to ascribe labels to what I am, that's fine, but I'm past caring about defining myself. I know what I feel, I don't need to ascribe special words to it.

Quote from: Blanche on January 30, 2010, 01:29:35 PM
That may be true but I also think that Susan's forum is a support site above all.  I don't think it's a requirement to want to become an activist to be here, isn't it?

My point is that it is an act of activism that Susan's forum exists, not that everybody has to be an activist to participate. I have a discussion forum that I host on my business site and I can tell you that it has regular expenses to put it up and takes some regular effort to maintain. Susan's place is free to all of us and with no advertisements. That is very special and we should acknowledge Susan's gift. She is an activist.

Maggie

I think this subject is also related with the debate between nominalism vs. realism. Terminology could be important, but every noun has ambiguous boundaries, and the boundary changes forever.

I think that transgender people are less coalescent than homosexual people, because the term transgender covers so much diverse groups of people.

Barbie~~

Quote from: Maggie Kay on January 29, 2010, 09:52:30 AM
I know that this subject has been discussed in the past but

I would suggest that you watch the movie 'Ferris Bueller's Day off'.

Your argument seems to come from the perspective of one of the characters in the movie, that of Jeanie.  The movie might help to answer some of your questions about this situation and life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferris_Bueller%27s_Day_Off

Quote from: Julie Wilson on January 30, 2010, 04:13:48 PM

I would suggest that you watch the movie 'Ferris Bueller's Day off'.

Your argument seems to come from the perspective of one of the characters in the movie, that of Jeanie.  The movie might help to answer some of your questions about this situation and life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferris_Bueller%27s_Day_Off

Her character was that of the sister of perennial goof off and slacker Ferris . She knew of his true character and was determined to see that he got caught. So how I am like this character? Who then is Ferris in your analogy? Who is it that I presumably what to get caught? I think you are trying to say that I advocate that transwomen who are in this analogy goof offs and slackers, should be exposed and punished.  That is pretty catty and certainly not true.

However apparently you do think transwomen are anti social slackers which I find very disturbing.

Quote from: Maggie KayHowever apparently you do think transwomen are anti social slackers which I find very disturbing.

Heh, been around long? there's deffinately more than a few.

Quote from: Maggie Kay on January 29, 2010, 09:52:30 AM
I know that this subject has been discussed in the past but I thought that it might be useful to get some new viewpoints on it. The subject is the notion that post transition transpeople are not transsexuals anymore but men and women "with a transsexual past."  In this group of people, the very terms we use such as "Passing," "Being Clocked," "Being Read," "MTF" etc are seen as useless and have no value. Some indicate that these terms are not in their vocabulary. Their position is that after one transitions, there is no need to be part of the trans community since they have achieved normalcy. I know one person who indicated that as soon as she has her surgery, she plans to put being trans behind her and presumably her trans friends too.

I take issue with this notion because in fact we cannot erase our genetics nor can most of us erase the vestiges of our birth gender. People transitioning now will have their birth gender on record in background databases and credit reporting agencies indefinitely. Medical records are not secure and with the Real ID act, they may be accessible to even a checkout clerk. So it is conceivable in the near future that a nosy clerk who suspects we are trans can verify this and out us. My point is that no matter how hard we try, we cannot erase our past. I don't even think it is practical or wise to do so. Our successes in getting civil rights and being accepted as humans is in large part because we are not all stealth. Our visibility does let the general public get to know us and not fear that we are going to molest their children etc. Also, these people of a transsexual past have taken support and comfort from the trans community at large only to abandon us when they transition. That is sad and unfair. We have to stick together and stand up for each other or we have no hope of attaining the recognition we all need.

I believe that once you are a transsexual you are always a transsexual.

What are your thoughts on this concept?

Maggie

Personally I belive that your concept is flawed....  I am a girl... nothing else. I believe holding on to the identity of a transsexual holds you back, frankly, its not something i ever identified as.
Yes, some may never escape it, but some can... why should they be punished or looked down on? really? shouldnt we be proud that some can get rid of this stigma?
It seems that you belive becaues not all can have normalcy, that none of us should... perhaps a spiteful concept if any.Yes, i do believe those that do are heros... they fight for us. Not every person is a solider, or a politician... they fight so we dont have to. I couldn't do what the activists do... its not in me. I don't want to be seen as a coward or weak for not following thier footsteps.
This topic comes up over and over and over, and its always the same format....

'omg people are getting normal lives! Stop them! no fair!'

I fought tooth and nail for my normal life. I'll be damned if someone is going to take it from me because they want what i have and arent willing to put in the time and effort to achive it for themselves.

Will i leave the trans community when I'm done? well, my only connection is online, and frankly, yes, I will. I'll have no need for it. While im here, i do my best to help others, and be supportive. But i do not want it to rule my life, or be forced to take it as some personal identification.

The attitude that 'you cant leave' or 'you'll always be a transsexual' often stops people being happy and getting on with life. To me, the people that do it, and get out, and on with life should be the role models... those to be looked up to... they did it... so can you!... a far more proactive and positive attitude.

That it is 'unfair' that people can get out of this spiders web smacks of jelousy and bitterness really. Perhaps you wouldnt feel this way if you were in thier position? You know what? I think if you had the chance to never be known as trans again... you TOO would take it and not look back. Honestly tell me otherwise?