Quote from: Dawn D. on February 14, 2010, 08:16:46 PM
Alyssa,

Sorry to hear about your thumb! I do hope that you can return to the piano soon.

Yes, seriously Alyssa! You know, if your opinion is that you made a choice to be who you are and you have a choice to persistantly display as female hoping for acceptrance from others, well, so be it. It's your right to make your choice. Be happy with it. And, good luck to you in your endeavors. And if it's your opinion that space aliens are controlling Vladimir Putin's brain, then you will get a Pulitzer Prize for reading comprehension.

However, I'll stick to my "problem" with the word desire and it's synonym, choose; implying that one would make a choice to be gender incongruent. I don't see how one could desire or choose to be incongruent. Pray tell! And yes, synoyms do have the same or nearly identical meanings. Look it up!  done

Desires and choices can be too easily seen as ludicrous. I can desire to be the President of the U.S.A., but actually becoming such is a pipe dream. Not only to me, but, I just about bet nearly everyone else that knows me too, lol! You can choose or desire to not pay your taxes. Let's see you convince the judge with your desire to not do so! However, there have been several cases won because the non tax paying citizen had a strong enough conviction (no pun intended) and belief that they were not obligated to pay said taxes and won! But, I digress.

If we allow the verbage desire, choose, choice or whatever to prevail, those detractors (you know the right-wing-nuts of vertually every aspect of western culture) that are there just waiting for the final draft to prove them right, will continue to have amunition to throw back at us validating their contention that somehow we "chose this lifestyle"; you made a "choice' to be who you are! Does it bother me that people have these misconceptions. You bet your ever lovin' ass it does. I know these nut jobs. And, they are dangerous! Just visit the list of those on the National Day of Rememberence site to witness their effectiveness.

Look, the issues I have with the released revision draft are more than just what I expressed earlier. There's alot more. The way I see it, these people are only providing us window dressing with the term Gender Incongruence vs. Gender Identity Disorder. I think their real goal is to provide just enough to satisfy a few, put just enough in to piss off some others, and end up factionalizing the whole freaking community. Appearantly it's already working! How do you fight and win a war? You divide and conquer!

Presently, they're winning.



Dawn

Evidently, "they" don't have to try very hard. 

You are twisting my words, and rather eggregiously. Knock it off. I won't speculate whether it's intentional. It doesn't matter. Just quit it. I said, "desire," not "choose." In fact, I said "choose" would be a silly word to use.

If you think those words mean the same thing, then you need a better dictionary. See below But I think you know they don't mean the same thing, and are just being rather paranoid about the possibility that someone else, the "right-wing nuts," might twist the words. If they do, I'll laugh at their poor grasp of the English language.

You don't like "desire." Fine. Propose something better, or drop it.

---

From merriam-webster.com:

desire
transitive verb
1 : to long or hope for : exhibit or feel desire for <desire success>
2 a : to express a wish for : request <they desire an immediate answer> b archaic : to express a wish to : ask
3 obsolete : invite
4 archaic : to feel the loss of

choose
transitive verb
1 a : to select freely and after consideration <choose a career> b : to decide on especially by vote : elect
2 a : to have a preference for b : decide <chose to go by train>

and from the m-w thesaurus:

Entry Word: desire
Function: verb
Meaning: to have an earnest wish to own or enjoy <he greatly desired a new mountain bike for his next birthday>
Synonyms ache (for), covet, crave, die (for), hanker (for or after), hunger (for), itch (for), long (for), lust (for or after), pant (after), pine (for), repine (for), sigh (for), thirst (for), want, wish (for), yearn (for)
Related Words delight (in), enjoy, fancy, like, relish
Near Antonyms abhor, abominate, detest, hate, loathe; decline, refuse, reject, spurn

Entry Word: choose
Function: verb
Meaning: 1 to decide to accept (someone or something) from a group of possibilities <choose a computer that best suits your needs>
Synonyms cull, elect, handpick, name, opt (for), pick, prefer, select, single (out), take
Related Words appoint, designate, nominate, tab; accept, adopt, embrace, espouse
Near Antonyms discard, jettison, throw away, throw out
Antonyms decline, refuse, reject, turn down

Meaning:2 to see fit <you can wear whatever you choose to the party>
Synonyms like, want, will, wish
Related Words crave, desire, fancy, hanker (for), hunger (for), long (for), yearn (for); decide, determine, resolve

Meaning: 3 to come to a judgment after discussion or consideration <chose to write on a controversial topic for the school newspaper>

---

They are not synonyms; M-W takes "desire" to be a "related word" to definition 2 (in the thesaurus), and you're using that weak relationship to imply that "desire" is defined by the definition 1 of "choose," for which there is no connection.

Like I said, weak sauce.

Alyssa said:

QuoteAnd if it's your opinion that space aliens are controlling Vladimir Putin's brain, then you will get a Pulitzer Prize for reading comprehension.

Space aliens? Vladimir Putin? Reading comprehension? Ohh boy...........really, this is not worth a response. But, is that humor? Derision? What? I thought, from you're previous posting in this thread (your derision of Pam) that you were the "all compassionate" for the disadvantaged? What happened? Evidently I should qualify judging from your remarks here. Oh well, poor me.

From my post:

QuotePresently, they're winning.

From yours:

QuoteEvidently, "they" don't have to try very hard.

Answer:

Only if you're willing to lie down and let them. Go ahead, Let 'em!

__________________

QuoteYou are twisting my words, and rather eggregiously. Knock it off. I won't speculate whether it's intentional. It doesn't matter. Just quit it. I said, "desire," not "choose." In fact, I said "choose" would be a silly word to use.

Really? Intentional? What are you talking about? Well, if you want to take your ball and go home, go ahead! I'm staying. And, I don't think I need to even wonder if your intent was intentional or not. It's pretty obvious.

Again, your post:

QuoteIf that implies any sort of "choosing," it's "choosing" to live a full and healthy life rather than an empty and painful existence.

Emphasis, mine.

I'm don't feel I'm twisting anything I'm reading. It's called, comprehensive reading, Alyssa. Oh yeah, you already told me I was good at that..............I think. Or, did I twist that, too?

_________________________

QuoteIf you think those words mean the same thing, then you need a better dictionary.

Okay, your right:

From: http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/Desire

Main Entry:    desire

Part of Speech:    verb

Definition:    want, long for

Synonyms:
   aim, aspire to, be smitten, be turned on by, choose, cotton to, covet, crave, desiderate, die over, enjoy, fall for, fancy, give eyeteeth for, go for, hanker after, have eyes for, have the hots for, hunger for, like, lust after, make advances to, partial to, pine, set heart on, spoil for, sweet on, take a liking to, take a shine to, take to, thirst, wish for, yearn for

Antonyms:
   not want

Again, emphasis mine. I sorry, it's not from the Merriam-Webster, but, just as valid non the less.

Oh, and in the synonym list above, look just before the word "choose". Do you see where it says, to "be turned on by"? Does that sound a little paraphilic, or not? Too me, it has kind of an eeeww, factor. No? And, you don't think for one minute that those right wing whack jobs I spoke of earlier aren't going to take the word desire and turn it into some form of porno-sexualised-fetihistic descriptive interpretation, if the word desire is used in the context of the way it has been presented in this revision? Get REAL!

QuoteYou don't like "desire." Fine. Propose something better, or drop it.

Are you demanding or asking? Because, if you're demanding, well, I don't respond very nicely to demands. They usually involve the extension of a middle digit.

But, to give you the benefit of the doubt, I did propose a better word in replacement of the word "desire". It's called "conviction". Here, just to save a little time. From the same above listed source. Sorry again, it's not Merriam-Webster. Yet, I feel it's a bit more appropriate considering contexts.

Main Entry:    conviction

Part of Speech:    noun

Definition:    guilty sentence; assurance

Synonyms:
   assuredness, certainty, certitude, condemnation, condemning, confidence, determining guilt, earnestness, fall, fervor, firmness, rap, reliance, sureness, surety, unfavorable verdict

Antonyms:
   overturning


Once again, emphasis mine. Using this word within the context of the revision of the DSM for Gender Incongruence not only is a better word than "desire", it is more accurately describing in it's connotation.

Look Alyssa, I really don't understand your fight with me over this issue or, your apparent need to belittle me in my view, opinion, or involvement in this topic. If you have some specific grievance with me please take it to a PM and I'll attempt to work it out with you. But, otherwise I kindly request that you get off my ass. A differing opinion on a subject is one thing. but, making it personal is quite something else.

Allowing for discourse between two opinions can be educational and enlightening. But, it should be done more respectfully than what we're displaying here. If I'm wrong, why attempt to bemuse others in this forum with terms of derision at my expense? Rather, why not show the rest of us and myself where I am wrong with a more logic based argument? If I am wrong in my assessment of the revision and someone can respectfully show me how that is so, believe me, I am not on here to show anyone that I am smarter than thou. I have no agenda. Just point out how I am wrong without the chastisement and I can accept it just fine! I'm still learning all of this the same as everyone else here. We can learn a lot together or, we can learn little, apart.


Dawn   

Girls, play nice.  Don't me tell your father.

Yes.......... mother.  Sorry...................


Dawn

Quote from: Janet Lynn on February 15, 2010, 12:35:36 PM
Girls, play nice.  Don't me tell your father.

Thank you, Janet. 

Dawn, let me make this clear: I am not attacking you, though I am disagreeing with you. I am however defending my point of view (which has absolutely nothing to do with you as a person).

In your responses to my posts, you misconstrue conditional statements. Some would call it "quoting out of context". You ignored or overlooked the extremely relevant word, "if," in my comment. My comment was neither humor nor derision (well, not mainly), but an extreme example of the notion that a ridiculous premise can support any conclusions, but that doesn't make the conclusion any more true.

I do think your comprehension of my last posts is severly lacking. You seem to have completely misunderstood what I wrote. If not and you actually understood what I meant, then I can only conclude that you are intentionally attacking me by misusing my words and drawing false implications from what I said. That would be ironic, because it's precisely what you fear transphobes will do. And you did it again in your previous post. I don't know which it is, because I don't know you.

In either case, I don't know what to say. If you were simply being belligerent, then I guess all I can say is, "knock it off." If, as seems more likely, you simply misunderstood, then I have nothing to say, because I thought I made my points pretty clearly.

---

Now, back to the point of this thread, to discuss the revisions -- which is why I told you to come up with a different suggestion.

I have no particular quarrel with the DMS proposals, so I'm completely willing to "let them win." I don't see the proposals as being terribly controversial, aside from the controversial topic of whether there ought to be any entry like GID at all. That's a different fight entirely. I strongly suspect that literally any entry the DSM committee could make would greatly displease someone. That's why they don't have to try very hard to sow discord: it grows like kudzu in the "community," without any interference from them whatsoever.

As for your words, "assurance," "assuredness," "conviction," "certainty," "confidence," "sureness:" I don't see how they work.

"Conviction" is already in there: "6.  a strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one's assigned gender)."

For items 2 and 3, none of those words would make sense. "2. a strong desire to be rid of one's primary and/or secondary sex characteristics" and "3. a strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender." I don't get how one would rephrase that or why it particularly matters.

For item 4 and 5, you might be able to finagle those words in, but at the cost of useful parallelism with 2 and 3. And I don't see how it resolves your problem. Consider M-W's take:

Quote3 a : a strong persuasion or belief b : the state of being convinced
synonyms see certainty, opinion

So someone might say, "See, it's just an irrational belief, just your opinion, that you're a woman." Now, that would be an obnoxious thing to say, a willful stretching of the meanings not to fit the context, but then that's exactly what I think you are doing with the word "desire." Maybe you're happier with it, but someone else will be unhappy, just as unhappy as you are with "desire." If they responded to, say, item 6 on those grounds, I'd take them to tsk just as much as I'm taking you to task.

All words are fuzzy. No words are true synonyms; they all inhabit overlapping and fuzzy regions of semantic space.

This thread has gotten out of hand.  When you are throwing dictionary definitions back and forth, it seems that the underlying meaning of the thread is getting lost.  Please can we not debate semantics and each others' knowledge of the English language.  A little more and this thread will be locked.

- Kate

Of course it is about definitions and semantics, its not engineering or art.  All the DSM is, is a manual of definitions (that get covered by insurance and hold up in court.)

Sometimes (well often) semantics do matter, it's just that such arguments often inspire a disproportionately emotional response.

It's just fascinating to me that such a lively debate can be sprung over one little word.

The problem for me about the word desire is just that it's often associated with sex and lust, etc. and I think even out of context there is a carryover.  "Ohhhh I desire the primary/secondary sex characteristics of the other gender!!! Ohhh yes!  Give them to me!!!!!"

I think even that contention is pretty middling though.  Just a sore spot relating to how society often looks at this condition.

I definitely can't imagine talking like one would have to to use desire as "choose."  "I desire a twix instead of a snickers bar, please."

There are a number of REAL mental disorders in the DSM but there are a lot of so-called disorders that are the result of pressure one gets from a phobic society.

A man who wants to wear women's clothes is said to be mentally disordered.  Why?  Who does that hurt?  What problems, other than socially created ones, does he create for himself if he doesn't conform to social expectations?  In another society or in another time it may have been perfectly acceptable.  Does that mean those people who accepted men dressed in women's clothes were ALL mentally disordered?

So how does one society or one point in time create mental disorders that didn't exist elsewhere?  Simple - people suffering from phobias imagine bad things happening and share their fears with other people with phobias.  It's not that hard, phobia is probably the most common mental disorder.  So basically, people with a mental disorder make the rules of what is a mental disorder all the while ignoring their own mental disorder.

However, they have an exit clause: "C.  Must not be merely an expectable response to common stressors and losses (for example, the loss of a loved one) or a culturally sanctioned response to a particular event (for example, trance states in religious rituals)" Or maybe seeing a man wearing a dress and high heels. 

So, if a phobia is culturally sanctioned, it isn't a phobia.  As long as most of the people think you're nuts, you are.

Gotta love it!

the problem with the DSM in current form is alot of the "diagnoses" are simply things society frowns upon. examples:

302.85 Gender Identity Disorder in Adolescents or Adults
302.6 Gender Identity Disorder in Children
302.3 Transvestic Fetishism (the infamous anti cd'ing "diagnosis", the sexuality component used as both a generalization and a reason to stigmatize)
302.72 Female Sexual Arousal Disorder (guess the natural variations in sexuality in women is "bad")
301.50, Histrionic Personality Disorder (another "diagnosis" that had misogynist roots)
292.89 Cannabis Intoxication (heh)
292.85 Caffeine-Induced Sleep Disorder (no comment)

while alot of the additions are a good thing, it might be better to simply scrap the DSM in favor of the ICD. (much less stigmatized behavior at the expense of being slow to update, ie the DSM-V's listing on cutting)

I think that makes sense, both what you said, Julie, and what the DSM says. There's no scientific basis for saying that one brain pattern or set of behaviors is "the right way" to be. The only criteria for deeming something a disorder involves the anguish it causes to a person and the trouble it causes to one's ability to function in society. I think that the ultimate cure for what we now call GID is the reformation of social gender roles, at which point it will truly be a purely medical issue. I don't think we're there yet, but we've certainly come a long way.

Taking the word "disorder" out of the name and putting the diagnostic emphasis on the conflict of the mind versus the body and social role takes a few steps in the right direction. Looking over it, I think the current (DSM-IV) version is lousy. It's too focused on particular actions. I just noticed they took out the word "disturbance." That's good too.

[Edit -- Ack! I meant that in response to Julie's comment, not Flan's. I hit reply, but then went away and came back and said, "oh, right" and responded, and didn't even see Flan's reply till now.

My understanding is that many of the things in the DSM are culturally based.  It is how you fit into the society in which you live.  Teleporting you to another society may cure the problem, but we have to function where we are.  If we are having problems functioning as we are where we are, it does no good to blame the society.  Therefore we have a "disorder" – a maladjustment to society as it exists around us.  We can only control ourselves.

Becoming a woman has cured me of my GID because I now fit into the society in which I live.  I was poorly adjusted to the society in which I lived because I was trying to be a man.  Now I am a well-adjusted woman.  (Well, pretty well-adjusted. )

- Kate

The problem with society establishing the rules one must follow is the same as the problem with majority rule and minority rights.  No one group should deny anyone of their rights and the right to be yourself should be #1.

In the DSM it says, in effect, if one has an irrational fear (phobia/anxiety) and it's a reaction most people have, then it isn't a phobia.  I see it as "We can't change the majority of people so we'll focus on changing the minority."

How about preaching and supporting ACCEPTANCE?  It's a lot easier than trying to change a person's personality.

I understand their majority rules mentality though.  If they published a manual of mental disorders that said most people have a mental disorder they would lose their credibility because the average person wants nothing to do with anyone who says they have a mental disorder.

But in taking this majority rules approach they stigmatize people who are simply different.  And this causes a lot of unhappiness, anxiety, stress, etc on these people.  Of course, the up side, for them at least, is they create work for themselves by stigmatizing people who would otherwise function quite well in an accepting society.

Create your own work!  What a great idea!  Maybe I should get the electric company to up their voltage output.  I'd make a lot of money installing transformers!

If we have to have something in the DSM, here's what I feel revision of 302.85 should read.

Gender Incongruence

A strong conviction to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by a sense of discomfort with, or inappropriateness of, one's anatomic sex, and a wish to have surgery and hormonal treatment to make one's body as congruent as possible with one's preferred sex.

Gender Incongruence is a recognized medical condition. Typically it displays with an associated Major Depression Disorder. Should such a depression disorder be present, analyze and work to alleviate the triggers for the depression. (insert all of the clinical markers for depression disorders here)

If it is established that no Major Depression Disorder is present or remains, Gender Incongruence should be referred to a qualified medical professional for medical and/or surgical resolving intervention.


They would still get us to talk to and listen to and learn from. Yet, there would be no list of qualifiers or references insinuating GI as a mental disorder. Of which I firmly believe it is not! And, not that there is anything wrong with those poor souls who have mental disorders. Because I truly do not have issue with anyone suffering from any such a disorder. Were it written this way or, and I am sure someone with greater lingual skills than I could word it to be more appropriate to a clinical standard, I believe GI would have less of a public stigma. Of course the public at large would need to have some indulgence of the issue to be aware of the change to our status. And, of course, even more so, that's all just wishful thinking.


Dawn

btw, the first paragraph after Gender Incongruence, I lifted from the ICD-10. I added one and changed one word in it.

Quote from: Dawn D. on February 19, 2010, 12:03:42 PMShould such a depression disorder be present, analyze and work to alleviate the triggers for the depression. (insert all of the clinical markers for depression disorders here)

If it is established that no Major Depression Disorder is present or remains, Gender Incongruence should be referred to a qualified medical professional for medical and/or surgical resolving intervention.

A person can be transsexual and also suffer from major depression - they're certainly not mutually exclusive conditions. Treating the gender issues should come first, or at least the two issues should be treated concurrently, because being a pre-transition trans person will contribute to the likelihood of becoming depressed, and will worsen any existing depression. Also, most if not all patients with mood disorders have to try a series of medications before finding one that works, and even then the effects tend to wear off after a while. Taking an antidepressant isn't an instant cure. So if it were a prerequisite that "no Major Depression Disorder remains" then most of us would pine away all our lives unable to transition while all that wanting to transition aggravates the very thing that's standing in the way of doing so.

OK, that was a bit more soapboxy than I intended.