Quote from: JillEclipse on February 23, 2010, 12:55:52 PM
Sounds like another mindless conservative rant. He thinks homosexuals are mentally ill, because they have higher suicide rates substance abuse etc. But he misplaces the causality. Homosexuals have higher suicide rates because of PEOPLE LIKE HIM. Not because of mental illness.

Da-dum-tchhh

Yeah, pretty much. It's a bit like blaming pornography for causing a divorce when, you know, the pornography was being obsessively viewed for a reason - because the spouse viewing it was sexually desperate, and wasn't getting their needs met at all. Duh.
But nooooo, this person is a "sex addict" and needs a twelve-step group. 

Quote from: FlanHusky on February 23, 2010, 12:15:42 PM
diagnoses are just labels to behaviour deemed abnormal.
the mental health professional is only as good as their training, experience, and personal beliefs.
it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out stuff happens in the clinician-client relationship, both are human and prone to screwing up.

I went to a therapist initially just for surgery letters, but are now dealing with things I would have likely never worked on by myself, that's just how things go.

all mental health professionals as part of clinicals undergo psychotherapy themselves.

I say this with great respect and compassion, but this is exactly the situation I am trying to refer to.

When we see these people we must try to be aware of what they are doing and keep control of the situation.

If we open up to these people we put ourselves under their control. Our information is their ammunition.

In an ideal world, these people would professionally, do the job they have been assigned.

But the world isn't ideal. These people are humans with the same variety of needs and inadequacies as everyone else.

More importantly, these people are highly competitive. Psychiatrists because they have been through medical school and failed to reach the top 3% in their class. Psychologist and therapists because they are basically fake psychiatrists. They resent being second best. They resent failing to gain entry into medical school. They opt for psychology as an easy option. (Relatively).

We are not ill. We are adults who have made a decision about our lives and bodies.

Our decision is no more significant than someone who opts for plastic surgery on their nose. Or someone who opts to emigrate.

Ours is a lifestyle choice. And it is a choice. Our feelings are not choice, but we can choose to live a miserable life in our birth gender or a satisfying life in our preferred gender.

The surgeons, naturally, want to be sure someone asking for this surgery is not psychotic. They want to be sure they are not being set up for a major lawsuit. That much is perfectly understandable.

But when we go to see these people, we must keep in our minds the reason for our visit.

We are not going to discuss our issues with our parents. We are not going to discuss our miserable childhood, our crush on the school janitor or how we masturbated in the toilets at break.

We have no anger issues with society. The world is the way it is. We don't seek to change it, but rather to experience how it changes naturally over time.

We are going to discuss our reasonably happy child hood where we made every effort to please our parents and conform to their expectations. Yeah, we were lonely at times, but we had a few good friends and a reasonably enjoyable child hood. Naah, we haven't really kept in touch, but if we do see each other, we are pretty happy.

Anything that we feel particularly angry about?

Not really. We did feel kinda pissed when mary/martin refused to go out with us when we were 14. (small laugh here). Later found out that mary/martin had personal problems at the time.

Have we told all our significant others?

More or less. (few relevant details illustrating that you are a caring and considerate person here. ).

Are you attracted to the same sex as your birth gender.

Yes. We have had some relationships with the opposite sex. The friendship was more satisfying than any physical encounters. Relationships with the same sex as our birth gender have been more satisfying. (Limit details here. Your sex life isn't their business. Let them ask you for specifics. Answer specifics matter of fact, yes or no. ).

This is how you maintain control with these people.

Remember, none of these people have any special insight into your mind or soul. All they have is tendencies. People who do this tend to do that and people who do that don't tend to do this.

Get your background fixed in your mind. The easy way to do this is, think of all the positive aspects of your childhood and keep these. Then think of all the negative aspects of your child hood and either, tell the opposite, or twist them into a positive.

Example. Your parents once caught you trying on your sister's skirt. They beat the s**t out of you. They told everyone and humiliated you.

I once tried on my sister's skirt. My parents caught me and gave me a bit of a hiding. It wasn't really fair on my sister, she was quite sensitive at the time. (Small smile).

My parents continually humiliated me.

It was a bit of a standing joke really. I suppose I was annoyed now and again, but they are my family.

If you feel uncomfortable lying, and I certainly do, remember, these people lie as a matter of course. They are not interested in you. They get paid whatever. if they think you're a bit of a softy, or a miserable sod, they will act the same as any other bully does.

If you want to win with these people, don't be a victim. We have little choice but to see these people. We should feel no guilt about manipulating them as they do to everyone else.

the problem with genital surgery as a medical issue is mostly really a legal one. idiots do stuff they regret all the time, while most who go through transition are better off afterward, there are some who really should have considered the consequences of their actions before hand. that's why the need for the mental health professional before medical treatment that will have permanent effects and consequences.

edit: yeah I know it's impossible to stop stupid, just limit the damage

Flan, the question in my mind is if it's really the role of government to stop people from doing bad things to themselves. I fully believe that it's the role of government to make sure people are aware of the consequences of severe, life-altering actions, to make sure service providers properly inform their clients, to see to it that safe equipment is used, etc. However, when it comes to actually prohibiting people from making the decision to do something like modifying their own body, I begin to feel quite leery. I understand that this is not an entirely black-and-white issue, but laws are a blunt instrument, and smacking people with that instrument when they wish to do something to themselves contrary to popular wisdom is a bit much of the tyranny of the majority for my taste. It may be justifiable, but the justification should be very substantial.

PanoramaIsland:when I say legal that mostly means of the lawsuit kind rather then the government saying "you can't to that to yourself". just like the thread about the detransition pulp, there is a certain sort of fool who, after doing something, will want to blame external forces for their actions.

I do not know if this is worth saying, but I am going to try once more.

Spacial, when I read your last post I felt sadness that you seem to have had such bad experiences. I am assuming that what you are saying is true of some psychologists. I get that you and others of us contemplating physical transition resent the Harry Benjamin protocols that give "these people" such arbitrary power over our lives. I am reading up on how things go before I decide it is totally unnecessary.

But I also hope that anyone reading what you are saying knows that you are overstating your case. You are presenting an extreme and biased picture - and being unfair to people you have never met. Many people on this site have reported therapists being very helpful, humane, honest and behaving with utmost integrity.

I would plead with anyone going to therapy, if you feel you cannot trust your therapist anymore than Spacial apparent does, find another therapist. Keep looking until you find someone you can trust. And believe that if you keep looking you can find someone you can trust and be honest with.

I am sad for you Spacial that you seem to have your mind made up, and do not seem to be open to other input. But Spacial, when you say they are all liars - you are attacking me. I am a therapist. Not a gender specialist, but part of the profession you are so unfairly critical of. Some of my best friends are therapists. Some therapists are as bad as the picture you paint. But most are not. And it does not help people to recommend blanket distrust and dishonesty to handle the situation. Caution, yes. Assertiveness, yes. But not dishonesty.

I have had clients that distrusted me. I see clients ordered by a court to come to therapy. If we cannot come to a place of mutual trust, and if I cannot help them identify goals they want to reach - their goals, not mine - then I have not been able to help. I cannot do this unless I am honest and caring as well as very clear about my limits. I would not do this work if I did not care deeply about the people I work with - and see clearly that I am helping my clients.

Please, look at more than one side of things.

Kendall

Kendall.

That was either a very carefully crafted response or a very badly done one.

Either way, you've managed to put your head on the chopping block and dare me to cut it off.

This is a discussion. Join in. Say your piece and defend your ground. There is little more boring than people sitting around, agreeing with each other because disagreement may cause offence. The point of a forum, especially the section titled Opinion, is to disagree.

Try it. It's fun.

I can assure you, it takes a lot to offend me. I've been involved in intellectual debate of one kind or another for many years.

Anyhoo.

I don't recall saying all psychologists are liars. But I do contend they are frauds.

I make that point because they are, for the most part, intelligent and educated people who pass their subjective judgements over as some sort of definable science.

But what I've been attempting to suggest here is that we are being treated like children, whose request for assistance with our issues must be carefully considered by wise grownups.

I have attempted to point out that psychologists are motivated by their egos. That, with a little thought and care, we can quite easily massage those egos and get what we want.

I'm sure that many psychologists do indeed help many people.

But what they do is little more than can be achieved by a chat with a decent friend.

I attempted to make a comparison between the psychologists and the old time priests. I suggest that they are almost identical in their approaches, their motivations and their methods. The only real difference is the priests worked from a more or less, standard text. (Which, at the time, few were permitted to see). While psychologists work from whatever preconceptions and personal neurosis happen to affect them.

Having said that, I would like to think, if we ever did meet, we could shake hands and call each other friend. I certainly don't resent you or your profession. We, as society, are in this mess because we have allowed it to happen.

spacial: that's the kicker, things just happened the way they did, going from a pure medical model (via the institutions like Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine and University of Minnesota, Program in Human Sexuality) that had insurance cover the costs at the expense of being told you have to look and act a certain way to get services in the first place.

the soc and the so called triadic therapy model may not be the best, but its allowed more people to transition into more happy lives, the entire point of the psychology profession.

Sorry FlanHusky, can you clarify your point please.

I have to confess, it's a bit above me at the moment.

While you're at it, can you say whay that stuffed cat is on your head? 

triadic therapy is soc speak for therapy leading to "hormones = = > real-life experience = = > surgery".

the therapy and hormones part are getting more liberalized, but social integration and surgery of some sort are still the milestones that a mental health practitioner wants to see. (as in a happier client afterwords as results of successfully jumping through hoops to get surgery)

ps: plushkitty owns me like a headcrab, it's an in-joke.

I think I understand now.

I apologise for asking for the carifications. Abbreviations are used by most people of course. Sadly, much like slang and dialect, they tend to be local.

I've heard of Triadic, in a number of different contexts, though not in this before. I wasn't really sure of how you were using soc. I take it this is the social model

It sounds quite interesting. Sort of total care package. Or is that a bit glib?

Can you also describe some of the behaviours the two universities expected of you?

Spacial, its me again. My last post was carefully crafted whether or not it was successful.

So I agree if we met face to face I would hope we would be friends. I enjoy your comments, even when I do not agree.

I also believe I have learned from your comments about how psychotherapy can go wrong, can be arrogant and disrespectful of clients, and can be subject to the limits of its practitioners. Especially when psychotherapy is put in place as a gatekeeper for transition surgery, which may not be appropriate.

What have you taken in from me?

Peace

Kendall

spacial: when I was at university of MN, the assigned psychologist, Cesar Gonzalez, wanted 18 months of concurrent therapy before the first surgery letter. (I was 3 months in HRT at that time)

contrast that with private practice therapists who are simply waiting for my surgery date. (she asked me today when I needed the letter from her)

the big difference is the attitude of the institution to play by the book and reject everyone who doesn't fit the mold, from the "sexual disorder" diagnosis for being pansexual, to "gender identity disorder, not otherwise specified" for being genderqueer. they want cookie cutter clients, so they can act out a script.

(that's my experience, your mileage may vary)

Thanks FlanHusky.

I can understand what you've been through here now.

These people, like many accademics are really only interested in their next paper.

Kendall.

I am so pleased you seem to have got the point of what I was trying to say. 

My issue with psychology is that it is a hotbed of incestuious and nepotistic slimeballs.
The peer review process ussed in psychology is a sure way to insure that those at the top are never truely chalenged on thier veiws.
People are the same regardless of the job they choose. The therapy culture only seeks to maintain its own existance.
I do not care if 'you' are a good therapist. It doesn't absolve your industry of the damage it has chosen to inflict on society.
The new DSM is practicaly going to pathologize the majority of the population. Basicaly so the therapists keep jobs and the pharma industry stays in the gree.
I am not sorry that I have painted therapist types with such broad strokes. When the lower caste of 'psychologists' stage a coup and unseat thier 'betters', maybe we can get a system that isnt so money orientated. But curently we are at the mercy of those who think they know better than the rest of us. LAME!

I resent the gatekeepers. And I'll be damned if I'm going to pretend to be straight in order to get medical care.

But I don't blame the therapists (some of whom are lovely people, I'm sure) - I blame the society that's given them so much power over people's lives. The Stanford Prison Experiment (ironically designed by psychologists) tells us a lot about how people behave when given power over others' lives, and the Milgram Experiment illuminates the propensity of intermediaries (doctors, police, etc) to do the bidding of "experts" in positions of authority.

And it's not just us - there are tons of people with less-easily-resolved problems who face the prospect of either conforming to their therapist's idea of who they should be and how they should behave, or losing their freedom entirely.