I notice that many cis-women have a "limp wrist" that rests at nearly a 90 degree angle.  This seems somewhat awkward to me.  Is the natural limp wrist based on bone biology (like the wider female pelvis), or is it the result of carrying a purse for many years on the arm?

Does estrogen loosen up the wrist to make it feel more natural?

Wait, what do you mean limp? I have a female body (but have never ever carried a purse) and my wrist is perfectly happy to bend to about a 90 degree angle, up or down, so if that's what you mean, then yeah, that's normal flexibility. I can't speak to whether estrogen would make your wrists more flexible, but it's possible since it does affect connective tissue.

But if you're saying that cis women's wrists are actually limp (i.e. that they hold them bent at an angle, perhaps like the stereotypical portrayals of gay men?) that's not something I've ever noticed in them, and it's certainly not something determined by female biology (my wrists are ordinarily straight unless I have a reason to bend them).

mom's wrist and mine are pretty much identical O_o hers is a a cm (or a bit less) smaller though but hey, she is 13 cm shorter (or so!)

considering that for millennia the women have had to do all the heavy housework like wringing out the bearskin sheets and similar it is reasonable to assume that women's wrists would be more stiff than men who merely push a pen a few hours a day and then guzzle beer all evening...but in fact that 90degree things is one of the markers of femaleness...even though saying that really gets up the noses of practically everyone.

Quote from: lilacwoman on February 26, 2010, 03:20:13 PM
considering that for millennia the women have had to do all the heavy housework like wringing out the bearskin sheets and similar it is reasonable to assume that women's wrists would be more stiff than men who merely push a pen a few hours a day and then guzzle beer all evening...but in fact that 90degree things is one of the markers of femaleness...even though saying that really gets up the noses of practically everyone.

There is no wrist shape difference O_o

I still have no idea what we're talking about.  Limp wrist?  Anyone got pictures?

I'm very totally confused about this. Please clarify what you mean, otherwise, the thread might just descend into pure speculation. I agree... pics? Could this be something related to arm carry angle (asked to OP)?

As a supposed boy, hearing for years: "You walk like a girl!" and "You throw like a girl" with derision made me tighten up my body language.  I could usually pass as a man, although it was never 100%.

Now, since I have loosened up and stopped pretending to be a man, I notice that my wrists are much more flexible.  But I am sure it is just because I no longer constrain my movements.

It is really sweet to be free.

- Kate

I know what you mean and I've seen some cis-girls do it.  I don't think its anything that has to do with bones or tendons but more to do with posture. I don't mean posture as in standing up but more that it is controllable akin to standing straight.  I don't have the limp wrist simply because when my wrist is relaxed, so is my arm which is hanging at my side.  That's how I see it anyway.

Female wrists, hands and fingers are naturally narrower and longer, and I believe are .... well, more feminine. In spite of a previous comment, pen pushing and beer can subduing were not a standard use of male arms and hands. Try plow pushing, axe swinging, weapon handling, hand saw useage, rope climbing, etc. None of these are great for dainty hands. Hand pampering and moisterizing helps as well.

That said, you do not need to engage in swishing behavior to compensate. I've always had, if not dainty, at least less than ham-like hands, and I worked my whole career moving things, boxes, luggage, steering wheels. I have done flexing and stretching exercises for years, which helps. It's all part of the study process. We watch women for walking, sitting and other mannerisms. Just watch their hands as well.

SusanKG

I've got to start carrying that protractor with me so that I can measure all the "angles" in women Careful though, sometimes imitating women can result in becoming their caricature.  No good.

The limp angle of my hand differs for each hand; my right doesn't hang as low as my left. I'm also right handed and spend a lot of time online (cupping a mouse). Back when I still used a cushioned mouse-pad, my right wrist got so stiff I could not move it more than 20 degrees or so either up or down. (Apparently, either the cushion was too resilient or I didn't apply enough weight or pressure to my hand, wrist, and arm to budge the gel.)

I only mention it because daily activity really takes a toll on all joints, anatomical inclination or not.

Quote from: Valentina on February 27, 2010, 05:55:27 AM
I've got to start carrying that protractor with me so that I can measure all the "angles" in women Careful though, sometimes imitating women can result in becoming their caricature.  No good.

The protractor isn't made that can measure all the angles in women!  That's one of the many things that make us soooo fascinating!

Actually, imitating to the point of caricature can be good training. The secret is dialing it way back down for "show time". So swish those limp wrists, sway those hips, bat those eyes, do the many, many mannerisms that most girls do when they want to; do it to practice.

SusanKG

Just be yourselves O_o that's the reason you started therapy. Not so you can be an actor or actress imitating someone or acting someone else.

There is no anatomical difference in the wrist.

Quote from: Myself on February 27, 2010, 11:21:42 PM
Just be yourselves O_o that's the reason you started therapy. Not so you can be an actor or actress imitating someone or acting someone else.

This.
It saddens me to see trans people cast off the chains of the gender binary, only to bind themselves in a new set of differently-gendered chains.

Some of us do not immediately fit in to the gender we really are and are working toward. We do not have naturally feminine features, we are usually taller than the average, we have many other non-standard features that are not consistant with our desired appearance. We don't have the wiggle and the jiggle and the giggle and other outwardly feminine aspects. So we have to get breast implants, wear wigs, maybe use heavier make-up, take marginally effective voice training, do a thousand other little things to achieve being as close to a reasonable appearing female as possible. No, it is not acting, I am not in training for the stage, I am trying to be a woman, not exchange some sort of theoretical "chains" to fit your plan - I'm following my own plan, thank you very much! If being a woman is only having a vagina it would be much, much easier (and cheaper); you don't believe me, ask any woman!

SusanKG

I just don't see the point of trying to adhere to feminine stereotypes, that's all. I'm trans, thank you very much, and I chafe with rage at people trying to force me to toe the gender-binary line. I can understand passing for physical safety, but a lot of transwomen come off to me as hyper-gendered parodies of womanhood. That's not what I wanted when I started taking estrogen, and I was anxious for a long time that I would end up getting shoved into that box by medical professionals or the world at large. Thankfully, I haven't been

Please don't get me wrong, I don't mean this as a personal attack. I just can't help but wonder when I see transwomen trying so hard to pick up all the baggage that so many cis women work all their lives to cast off. What's the point? Why not take all that energy spent trying to capture the elusive (and nonexistent) essence of womanhood and redirect it towards just pursuing whatever makes you happy, doing what you enjoy? I see no reason for us to mold ourselves to fit society's definition of womanhood. Who cares what angle other women's wrists dangle at? Dangle your wrists however makes you feel happiest.

Quote from: K8 on February 26, 2010, 05:22:23 PM
"You walk like a girl!" and "You throw like a girl"

Yes that's me... I could never ever catch a ball or play table tennis but then I never liked sport and never played football in my life.

However I think this "walk like a girl" is due to toe in and "throw as a girl" is due to the angle between upper and lower arm when your palm is pointing outwards.

There is a fact that oestrogen also soften the connective tissue in the hip so after being on oestrogen for a while the hip might tilt forwards so the possibility that oestrogen also soften the connective tissue in the wrists might be possible.

I find it somewhat ironic how aggressive people become about issues pertaining to gender binary and gender social standards.

The normal world by and large believes in a gender binary and accepts no gray, and the trans world by comparison by and large believes in gender spectrum and accepts no black and white, which puts you in a VERY awkward and often untenable position if you you're both trans and believe in a gender binary and not much gray. But neither group accepts both viewpoints as valid, only their one. And in that regard, both are pretty much just as unaccepting as each other.

Quote from: Ashley4214 on February 28, 2010, 01:31:56 AM
I find it somewhat ironic how aggressive people become about issues pertaining to gender binary and gender social standards.

The normal world by and large believes in a gender binary and accepts no gray, and the trans world by comparison by and large believes in gender spectrum and accepts no black and white, which puts you in a VERY awkward and often untenable position if you you're both trans and believe in a gender binary and not much gray. But neither group accepts both viewpoints as valid, only their one. And in that regard, both are pretty much just as unaccepting as each other.

I really wish the whole trans community rejected the gender binary, but that's not been my experience at all. I find that a lot of trans people try very hard to conform to gender stereotypes.