Quote from: PanoramaIsland on February 28, 2010, 01:36:07 AM
I really wish the whole trans community rejected the gender binary, but that's not been my experience at all. I find that a lot of trans people try very hard to conform to gender stereotypes.

And I really wish the whole trans community just let people have their own positions without trying to impose their own.

The gray area non-binaries can go do their thing, the binary conforming and/or accepting trans can do theirs.

What's so wrong with that idea? 

I don't deny achieving physical features which one desires, How could I! I mean, I went to a surgery when more than one people told me not to.

But what I mean is, when it comes to "poses" and how you "carry" yourself, just be yourself, relax, be natural, it will all come to you.
If you are a woman or a man, then you are a woman or a man. BE YOURSELF, trust yourself, you'll get there. You don't need to look at women or men all around you and learn to imitate them.

SURE. There ARE disadvantages/disabilities like VOICE and APPEARANCE which sometimes require INTERVENTION for example SURGERY or VOICE THERAPY and I am ALL FOR IT. I just think people here are looking WAY TOO MUCH and are seeing things WHICH ARE NOT THERE.

I don't mean this as any offense, but seriously. Pose like whatever you want to but don't make it artificial. Don't over do it, be natural, be yourself, be unbound. This is the reason people here go through this, to be themselves. I don't see why anything beyond voice and appearance is required, if you are not the type which sways or giggles or bounce then why force yourself to be one?
If you feel like giggling, GIGGLE! if you feel like bouncing, BOUNCE! if you feel like swaying, BY ALL MEANS SWAY! but don't do it just because it is a stereotype.

Be confident that you are who you are and that you don't need to answer to things which are not really there.

I hope the bolds will help people see my opinion and prevent people coming at me saying I am against their goals. My point is in here, be yourself - this is the reason you came here.

---

Post Merge: February 28, 2010, 02:06:37 AM

---

Quote from: Ashley4214 on February 28, 2010, 01:38:53 AM
And I really wish the whole trans community just let people have their own positions without trying to impose their own.

The gray area non-binaries can go do their thing, the binary conforming and/or accepting trans can do theirs.

What's so wrong with that idea? 

Everyone should do what they want and what they feel comfortable with.
I just think people shouldn't do things just because it's stereotypical.

Quote from: Myself on February 28, 2010, 02:03:31 AM
I just think people shouldn't do things just because it's stereotypical.

I agree, that's not really what I'm talking about. I'm more annoyed by the people who so reject social norms and the gender binary to the point where they're aggressive towards people who don't.

Quote from: Ashley4214 on February 28, 2010, 02:23:44 AM
I agree, that's not really what I'm talking about. I'm more annoyed by the people who so reject social norms and the gender binary to the point where they're aggressive towards people who don't.

I don't like that either, I don't think I ever implied anything as that too. My first posts were to imply that there is nothing with the wrist, later I came to say that people should be themselves and not look too much just to "imitate" and in addition, there is still nothing in the wrist.

Quote from: PanoramaIsland on February 28, 2010, 01:36:07 AM
I really wish the whole trans community rejected the gender binary, but that's not been my experience at all. I find that a lot of trans people try very hard to conform to gender stereotypes.

We have a trans binary too. Funny, eh? I like that people challenge the binary, even if I personally don't. I'm just on the wrong side of that imaginary binary division.

As for the wrist, no, there is no difference in bone structure. Only habit.

Hmmm ... I think it's pretty much stating the obvious that most women sometimes let their hands hang loosely at an angle to their wrists in a way most men don't, and that they angle their feet (eg when their legs are crossed, just letting their shoe dangle off a toe) in a way men don't.

There's certainly a physical component to this, in the sense that women, by and large, have more flexible joints than men ... and a social one in that these postures are seen and read as more feminine.

But one could look at it the other way and say that the pressure is actually on men to maintain the appearance of strength, rigidity and masculinity (and thereby escape the apparently terrifying threat of appearing effeminate or gay) by keeping their entire bodies much more tense and inflexible. Hell, 'limp-wristed' is a classic insult thrown by macho homophobes at any male who dares to even hint at femininity.

I am still male-bodied, but I quite often find myself, when alone, holding my hands in a 'limp-wristed' way ... I don't know whether this is because I am preparing myself for my imminent transition ... or because it comes naturally to me as someone with Gender Incongruity ...

... but I have another suggestion: maybe it's just much more comfortable and relaxing that way!

Quote from: PanoramaIsland on February 28, 2010, 01:36:07 AM
I really wish the whole trans community rejected the gender binary.

really? i really wish the whole trans community rejected the trans "spectrum".

funny how that sounds when it doesn't apply to you, don't cha think?

Quote from: PanoramaIsland on February 27, 2010, 11:49:25 PM
This.
It saddens me to see trans people cast off the chains of the gender binary, only to bind themselves in a new set of differently-gendered chains.

I'll go along with Harry Benjamin's idea of a true transsexual having a female brain in a male body...so naturally that brain will control the body and once freed by starting transition it will cause the body to behave in a female manner..
And if that upsets all the non-transsexuals i don't care.

Best not to exaggerate the 'limp wrist' thing. Just use gender appropriate gestures which you will probably find come naturally the more you present as female. If genetic women do indeed have more flexible wrists, those of us who were born with male genes cannot do much about it other than excercises to loosen up the wrists. There are some DVDs out there which advise mtf on feminine deportment and these have some excercise regimes which might help. Just google "feminine deportment" and you will find the site which produces them, run by a lovely genetic female lady from California - sorry her name escapes me right now, but I still have and occasionally use her DVDs.

QuoteAnd if that upsets all the non-transsexuals i don't care.

Yer gettin kind of hardcore there sweety. I usually quietly agree with you on most things, but there's no reason to be off-putting.

It could just be the musculature of the forearm. I know the strength of my grip and the power in my arms and shoulders has dropped dramatically, and I also have found myself more limp wristed. I think it's just from musculature changes, not my true female brain taking over...however validating that idea might be.

Really, it's habit. I have really weak forearms and I don't do the limp-wristed thing. Some gay guys do, and they're completely male-bodied.

Quote from: lilacwoman on February 28, 2010, 05:54:00 AM
I'll go along with Harry Benjamin's idea of a true transsexual having a female brain in a male body...so naturally that brain will control the body and once freed by starting transition it will cause the body to behave in a female manner..
And if that upsets all the non-transsexuals i don't care.

Well, if Harry Benjamin can rise from the grave and give me an exact, rigorous, scientific definition of the so-called "female brain," and a philosophically rigorous defense of why this brain type is intrinsically "female," and what, for that matter, "female" really means, I'd love it, because it would lay a lot of my nervousness around gender to rest. But there's been plenty of time for brain experts and psychological professionals of all types to come up with these things, and they best they can come up with is that the "female brain" is a collection of the most common characteristics found in brain scans of bio women. That the brains of women tend to diverge somewhat from the brains of men is not especially surprising, because women are socialized differently, encouraged to go into different occupations and develop different skills, etc. I just haven't seen an iota of evidence the two binary sexes are born with two different brain types.

Look, we're all indebted to Harry Benjamin for the valuable work he did - but I'm with Judith Butler on this one. And lest you forget, I'm on estrogen too. I, too, am contemplating surgery. I, too, have worked very hard to be who I am. I have also been beaten unconscious for it. I just don't see myself as a gender-binary person, and I don't want to stir up a turd storm here, but I am hurt when people deny me my trans-ness and say "okay, you're a woman now, start acting like one - here's a handbag and a pair of high heels."

I understand that some trans people feel very strongly about the gender binary and feel that non-binary people likewise hurt them by denying their identity - and that's valid. But I do think there's room - plenty of room - for people whose gender identity is close to the binary norm. There's nothing wrong with it. That doesn't mean that others have to pretend they're close to the binary when they're not, though.

Sigh.

This is one of those "interfaith" things, isn't it...

Quote from: lilacwoman on February 28, 2010, 05:54:00 AM
I'll go along with Harry Benjamin's idea of a true transsexual having a female brain in a male body...so naturally that brain will control the body and once freed by starting transition it will cause the body to behave in a female manner..
And if that upsets all the non-transsexuals i don't care.

I agree with this, and am not attributing to you Lilacwoman any position I am responding here.

My only point that started the big-time digression here and which got lost in the fog in my transition-affected mind is that a birth female has certain general physical characteristics they have always had. They walk, talk, move, and act because of both those characteristics and because of the socializing that girls give and get. Some trans-gendered people also have and get at least some of these cross-gender phyisical and social benefits, or as it's been called here, "stereotype" behaviors. Without that lifetime of  gender "stereotype training", as some here seem to be on a crusade to denounce, many of us are self-diagnosed as deficient in those behaviors and appearance. I'm sorry if wanting to "wiggle, jiggle and giggle" to feel more within my determined gender presentation goes against anyone else's transition plan that I'm supposed to sign on to, but, too bad.

And to clarify: I am not in any manner wanting to be confused with Marilyn Monroe. I do not delude myself that the Miss America contest awaits me, the life of a Dallas Cheerleader does not appeal to me although I also think it would be nice to be percieved as their loss. If it works for me, why are some here determined to put it down?

SusanKG

---

Post Merge: February 28, 2010, 03:28:26 PM

---

Additional added after reading PanaramaIsland's last post -

I believe I didn't attack you or your right to hold transition plans and beliefs that work for you. No one should, that is your plan and your right. Hopefully, no one is pretending, although I've pretended to be male for 63 years. I do wish you continual good luck and green lights in your progress toward your gender plan.

SusanKG

For god's sake, can someone please explain what this limp wrist thing is in the first place?  I'd love to prove you all wrong but first I need to know what you're wrong about! 

As someone who came out in support of a gender binary viewpoint, I want to reiterate again that by gender binary I am NOT talking gender stereotypes.

Just because you don't think women should have to wear dresses and heels and stupid stuff like that, doesn't mean you don't believe that when you really get down to it, everybody pretty much falls into one side or the other.

If I had to be honest, and I'll probably get attacked for saying this, I don't believe there's any real thing as a true gender spectrum. I don't believe that there's a "third gender" or anything like that, I just don't, and I can't make myself believe it. It doesn't mean I don't respect the rights of other people to identify that way, and to the best I can I'll support people in that, but I personally don't believe in it.

That doesn't mean I believe in rigid stereotypes either and that there isn't a world of gray in between the options.

Oh and I still don't really understand what this wrist angle thing is, lol.

I get really tired of all these petty arguments, why can't everybody just let everybody else have their own beliefs even if you don't agree with them. These arguments are futile and invariably dissolve into attacks. Why can't I just say I don't believe in a gender spectrum, and other people can say they do, and just leave it there and take it no further?

Quote from: Ashley4214 on February 28, 2010, 06:20:06 PM
As someone who came out in support of a gender binary viewpoint, I want to reiterate again that by gender binary I am NOT talking gender stereotypes.

Just because you don't think women should have to wear dresses and heels and stupid stuff like that, doesn't mean you don't believe that when you really get down to it, everybody pretty much falls into one side or the other.

If I had to be honest, and I'll probably get attacked for saying this, I don't believe there's any real thing as a true gender spectrum. I don't believe that there's a "third gender" or anything like that, I just don't, and I can't make myself believe it. It doesn't mean I don't respect the rights of other people to identify that way, and to the best I can I'll support people in that, but I personally don't believe in it.

That doesn't mean I believe in rigid stereotypes either and that there isn't a world of gray in between the options.

Oh and I still don't really understand what this wrist angle thing is, lol.

I get really tired of all these petty arguments, why can't everybody just let everybody else have their own beliefs even if you don't agree with them. These arguments are futile and invariably dissolve into attacks. Why can't I just say I don't believe in a gender spectrum, and other people can say they do, and just leave it there and take it no further?

You just denied my existence as a genderqueer person. That's not petty - that's very important. I come here for support, not to be denied and swept under the rug. I don't mean to squabble, but there's a reason why I bring these things up. I expect my identity to be embraced, here of all places. I can't be held responsible for upholding the illusion of a gender binary, and I'm not going to deny my own identity to do so.

This afternoon I spent a few hours mothersitting and watching Death on the Nile and then some modern audience participation stuff and I have to say the difference between male and female body and face language was so marked as to be unmistakable.   OK.. maybe the actresses in the film were exaggerating a bit but in the other stuff there were ordinary people doing things and again the difference was chalk and cheese...especially the hand and wrist actions of all the females...the men in the old films and the modern show looked to be practically paralyzed by comparison...if you're female you'll be loose jointed and supple...

Quote from: PanoramaIsland on February 28, 2010, 06:28:29 PM
You just denied my existence as a genderqueer person. That's not petty - that's very important. I come here for support, not to be denied and swept under the rug. I don't mean to squabble, but there's a reason why I bring these things up. I expect my identity to be embraced, here of all places. I can't be held responsible for upholding the illusion of a gender binary, and I'm not going to deny my own identity to do so.

Nobodies telling you you don't exist. You have every right to identify as genderqueer, and I'm fine with that. My personal beliefs don't accommodate it as an equal identity to male and female, but why do you care what I believe? They're just my opinions and I feel I have every right to have them without being condemned and judged for it. Just as you should have every right to have yours too.

But I see no difference in being aggressive and hostile towards people who accept a gender binary to people who are aggressive and hostile to people who do not. They're both intolerance and I wish it would stop.

I didn't deny your existence as a genderqueer person, I denied that I personally view that there is any other gender other than male and female. Those are my personal beliefs, would you prefer I lie to you and tell you they're not? Or just say nothing and let you rant about people like me who believe in a gender binary? Because to be honest, neither sound very fair or appealing.

You have every right to believe what you want, and I'm fine with that, but people should try to accept that we don't all agree and that that's perfectly fine.

Quote from: Ashley4214 on February 28, 2010, 06:54:32 PM
Nobodies telling you you don't exist. You have every right to identify as genderqueer, and I'm fine with that. My personal beliefs don't accommodate it as an equal identity to male and female, but why do you care what I believe? They're just my opinions and I feel I have every right to have them without being condemned and judged for it. Just as you should have every right to have yours too.

But I see no difference in being aggressive and hostile towards people who accept a gender binary to people who are aggressive and hostile to people who do not. They're both intolerance and I wish it would stop.

I didn't deny your existence as a genderqueer person, I denied that I personally view that there is any other gender other than male and female. Those are my personal beliefs, would you prefer I lie to you and tell you they're not? Or just say nothing and let you rant about people like me who believe in a gender binary? Because to be honest, neither sound very fair or appealing.

You have every right to believe what you want, and I'm fine with that, but people should try to accept that we don't all agree and that that's perfectly fine.

You tell my you accept me and then in the same breath say that you don't believe people like me exist. Fuggedaboutit. I'm not going to argue about this any more.

I think we've gone about as far as we can on this subject.

Topic locked.