So, I'm reaching a breaking point and this is one of the big like 5 things that I'm pretty sure are big indicators that I'm in the same league as you guys

And I HATEEE having a masculine voice, even though it's not really as deep as others, it's like a david archuleta kind of voice.

I just don't know if simply "trying" to speak more feminine will do me justice:(

Is there ANY kind of surgery that can reconstruct your voice or something?  I don't have much money but I would save up for years if I could have that guarantee (And it sucks too because I want to be a singer, and well, I don't know how practical it is in the first place, but being trans would make it infinitely harder.......and the risk involved with getting surgery.....blah)

whaddya think!?

Well, you can learn to sign in a high voice by learning to sign using techniques a male soprano might. I know of a person who does that and have perfectly good female speaking and signing voice. That does mean finding a singing teacher and telling them your personal circumstance so they know to teach you that way.

Vocal surgery and assuring maintaining a good signing voice is probably not that feasible.

Having said that, I wouldn't mind finding out the state of surgeries at the moment. For example cost, typical results, and if it doesn't go well, the common results etc.

To be honest, and I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings here, I have heard many people who have had voice surgery. I have yet to hear one that sounds natural! To my ear they all sound faux, like someone trying to put on a caricature of a female voice... and failing. The tonal quality of the voice is often all but destroyed and what is left sounds very thin and un-natural.

Admittedly there may be some good results out there, but I've never actually found one myself.

By contrast I have heard many people who have learned the hard and sometimes painfully slow way to use their natural voice differently and almost all of them have got there in the end and have a superior result to those who have tried the surgery.

The moral of the story - this is an area where unfortunately there are no quick fixes or short cuts.

It's also one reason why I am so absolutely convinced that those who oppose puberty blockers for early presenting MtF's are both utterly wrong and (perhaps unintentionally) horribly cruel! Undoing the irreversible ravages of testosterone on the voice is for many one of the biggest obstacles to success.

On the simple question: can voice surgery work? The answer seems to be ... it often didn't work in the past but it's getting a LOT better. The more complicated answer is as follows ...

I am about to start voice training with Christella Antoni, the senior voice therapist at the Gender Identity Clinic at London's Charing Cross Hospital, which is the UK's specialist centre for MTF and FTM transgender patients. Essentially, it's a one-stop-shop for anyone who wants to transition: I'm not aware of there being any equivalent in the US, but I could be wrong. When I went for my initial consultation, she told me that in the past she had always advised her patients not to have surgery, since the best way to get a convincing female voice was simply to train and practice, so as to increase pitch, take out those male bottom-notes and (in her view the most important thing) learn female speech-patterns, inflections and the use of higher pitch, rather than louder volume to create emphasis or express intense emotion.

BUT ... Christella now thinks that the ear, nose & throat surgeons at Charing Cross have improved their techniques to the point where she can now recommend her patients to have surgery. She thinks that the knowledge that they cannot now fall into the low male register relaxes TG girls ... ironically, it often makes them speak at a slightly lower register, since they're not straining to sound high-pitched and girly. But because they're more relaxed they sound much more natural and therefore convincing.

BUT (again!) ... She also said that there is absolutely no point having surgery if you haven't already trained your voice. Without training you'll just sound like a man with a thin, reedy, effeminate voice ... but not a female voice.

SO ... and please note that I am merely passing on the views of a professional specialist, not making any judgements of my own ... get your voice as good as you can by non-surgical means, THEN consider surgery ...

Hope that helps!!

Quote from: Carlita on March 01, 2010, 03:08:29 AM
On the simple question: can voice surgery work? The answer seems to be ... it often didn't work in the past but it's getting a LOT better. The more complicated answer is as follows ...

I am about to start voice training with Christella Antoni, the senior voice therapist at the Gender Identity Clinic at London's Charing Cross Hospital, which is the UK's specialist centre for MTF and FTM transgender patients. Essentially, it's a one-stop-shop for anyone who wants to transition: I'm not aware of there being any equivalent in the US, but I could be wrong. When I went for my initial consultation, she told me that in the past she had always advised her patients not to have surgery, since the best way to get a convincing female voice was simply to train and practice, so as to increase pitch, take out those male bottom-notes and (in her view the most important thing) learn female speech-patterns, inflections and the use of higher pitch, rather than louder volume to create emphasis or express intense emotion.

BUT ... Christella now thinks that the ear, nose & throat surgeons at Charing Cross have improved their techniques to the point where she can now recommend her patients to have surgery. She thinks that the knowledge that they cannot now fall into the low male register relaxes TG girls ... ironically, it often makes them speak at a slightly lower register, since they're not straining to sound high-pitched and girly. But because they're more relaxed they sound much more natural and therefore convincing.

BUT (again!) ... She also said that there is absolutely no point having surgery if you haven't already trained your voice. Without training you'll just sound like a man with a thin, reedy, effeminate voice ... but not a female voice.

SO ... and please note that I am merely passing on the views of a professional specialist, not making any judgements of my own ... get your voice as good as you can by non-surgical means, THEN consider surgery ...

Hope that helps!!

Good to hear carlita... and I wish you very good luck with the voice training at Cxh. What you say makes perfect sense to me. I guess all those I have cme across are the ones who either had the earlier ops or perhaps tried to skip the pre-training then.

I'm one of those lucky irritating people whose voice never fully broke so I never had to go through any of that because my voice and manner of speaking was never male, but I do know from my partner, what a struggle it can be and indeed what a difference it can make when you finally succeed.

Does anyone know a good voice trainer in the  Denver area.
Jessica

This is an expensive book, but you might be able to get it through inter-library loan:

Voice and Communication Therapy for the Transgender/Transsexual Client: A Comprehensive Clinical Guide (2006) - Richard K. Adler * Amazon * WorldCat

Quote from: rejennyrated on March 01, 2010, 03:22:24 AM
Good to hear carlita... and I wish you very good luck with the voice training at Cxh. What you say makes perfect sense to me. I guess all those I have cme across are the ones who either had the earlier ops or perhaps tried to skip the pre-training then.

I'm one of those lucky irritating people whose voice never fully broke so I never had to go through any of that because my voice and manner of speaking was never male, but I do know from my partner, what a struggle it can be and indeed what a difference it can make when you finally succeed.

Thanks for your wishes of good luck - I'm going to need them!! I envy your vocal ease! A girlfriend of mine was blessed with a similarly unbroken voice. Not me!! I wouldn't say I have a particularly macho voice but it's actually surprisingly deep: I know because Christella Antoni tested it when I went to Charing Cross. So I've got a way to go to get it right. Luckily I have quite lively intonation and my singing voice is tenor, so I can reach quite high notes without too much trouble. She seemed pretty confident that I would end up with a low, but feminine voice ... This is something I think is absolutely crucial to successful transition - just go on You Tube, check out all the T-girls posting there: the difference between the ones who sound feminine and the ones who don't is chalk and cheese. That said, I think it's going to be very tough for me psychologically to lose my male voice - much harder than any part of my anatomy - just because it almost seems more personal, more of a confirmation of the absoluteness of transition as a whole. And as much as a huge part of me longs for that, there's always that nervous, fearful part that wants a simply life and wishes the Gender Incongruity would all just go away, even tho I know full well that it won't ... But hey, no one ever said this was easy!

Quotesince the best way to get a convincing female voice was simply to train and practice, so as to increase pitch, take out those male bottom-notes and (in her view the most important thing) learn female speech-patterns, inflections and the use of higher pitch, rather than louder volume to create emphasis or express intense emotion.

I am becoming convinced of this as well.

Especially since I've been with Susan's, I've been listening to female and male voices.

many woman have deep voices, many men have high pitched voices.

The difference is in how they say what they say.

I'm a complete amateur, of course, but I've noticed that women tend to end sentences as if they are going to say something else, or they are inviting a response.

Women also tend to be seeking agreement.

Men tend to end sentences with a definite. A sentence is a statement. Argue with this and I'll argue back. Or, you may argue with this but I'll still argue back. Or, a request that's really a command.

It seems to be about attitude.

From everything I have read/heard about voice surgery, I would not recommend it. There is a chance that going through with it can improve your voice but there is also a VERY high chance that it can make your voice worse off than it was before.

Voice training is the way to go. Do a Youtube search for tutorials on training your voice to be feminine. The Deep Stealth "Finding Your Female Voice" DVD program is also very useful. Also, this sort of thing takes practice... A LOT of practice. You aren't just going to wake up with a realistic female voice overnight. You have to keep at it, and work toward the voice you want.

Don't worry. You'll get there. It just takes some time and effort. ^_^

Considering I used to sing bass and now can do a decent alto I definitely would say training vs surgery. Surgery is like trying to tune an instrument without playing it, so I dare you to try it with a guitar just to see what I mean. At best you lose some tonal quality as K8 said, at worst you sound like Minnie Mouse. Its because the larynx of a male is larger than a genetic female. Therefore without training you can't learn to compensate for the effects, and thus sound horrible.

Training isn't really that hard as long as you try to be consistent. Also when you start to live more as your target sex you can use it more on a daily basis which means it gets better that much faster. I don't even really need to think about my voice these days, that is how much training helps.

Quote from: jesse on March 01, 2010, 06:01:33 AM
Does anyone know a good voice trainer in the  Denver area.
Jessica

Hi Jessica,

Yes. Here name is Kathy Perez. Here's her website: http://www.exceptionalvoice.com/

I went through here first 6 voice lessons and although I have a ways to go, it was a good foundation to build on. Good luck! -Dora

many thanks dora ill check her out