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Want to change gender but I'm not a transsexual

Started by flexible, March 19, 2010, 02:22:15 PM

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flexible

Hey guys, I'm new to these forums, but not new to the idea of transsexuality. I'm not a transsexual myself, but I found someone on youtube who is, a few years ago, and since then I've just been really interested in them. I think transsexuals are lucky, they get to experience life as both genders. Ok correction - they get to be TREATED by others as though they are one gender at point in their lives, and then the opposite at another point.

I'm a woman. For a little while now, i've been thinking about changing genders.. before you jump on me and say I'm crazy or whatever, consider my circumstances. The part of the world in which I've grown up in and currently reside in, is very male dominant. All my life I've been overlooked, I've been passed over for job interviews purely because of my gender; I've had my contributions to conversations waved aside because people around here care more about what's between your legs than the words that come out of your mouth. And I believe to a lesser extent men all over the world have a decided advantage over women. They are taken more seriously, they don't have to constantly worry about how pretty they look, there are no needless mind games between men (or at least not as many as there are between women. I can't tell you how many bitchy women I've known who will treat you absolutely charmingly to your face, and then like you're lower than a worm, behind your back.) Women are crueler in so many ways. Men might not be as naturally empathetic as some females are, but they are direct; I can appreciate that directness and I would love to be a part of that world. I want my career to mean something (I'm in chemical research), I want people to treat me with respect and dignity, and not be dismissed as vacuous or irrelevant simply because of my gender. I realize many women don't share my experiences and thus would come to a completely different conclusion to the one I am proposing, but for me personally, it seems like a viable option.
And who I am inside isn't necessarily going to change; all I want to change is the outside. Is that so strange? People try to control and adapt to their environments no matter who they are; transsexuals by conforming to their gender identity, people like ME by conforming to an external standard. I'm not sure about it, though, which is why I'm posting here now. I would love to hear your thoughts. Do you think this is a good idea? How could I get started?
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cynthialee

This is probably the worst thing you could be thinking of doing if you are not trans.
The world ->-bleeped-<-s on us. We loose our families, our jobs our standing in society and the respect of our peers.
We do not do this on a whim, we do it for a serious medical reason. Gender Dysphoria. If you do not suffer from GD then I highly sugest you re-evaluate.
I wish you the best and good luck.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'
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kyril

I think it would be a good idea for you to spend some time reading the writings of MTF women - see through their eyes what it's like to be a woman inside, but living in a male body and being treated as a man. To put it as concisely as possible, it's intolerable for them.

Reading what you've written though, if you hadn't explicitly said you weren't trans, if you'd instead said you were questioning whether you might be...well, from my perspective, I wouldn't have ruled it out. There was a time in my life when I was trying really hard to pretend to myself and everyone else that I was a woman, and I felt a lot like you say you do and said some very similar things at that time.


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Flan

Quote from: cynthialee on March 19, 2010, 02:43:13 PM
We do not do this on a whim, we do it for a serious medical reason. Gender Dysphoria. If you do not suffer from GD then I highly suggest you re-evaluate.

+1
If you can safely avoid transition, go for it, otherwise be prepared for consequences.
Also, there is no such thing as gender change, but aligning the body to make peace. (assuming there is no delusional thinking)
Soft kitty, warm kitty, little ball of fur. Happy kitty, sleepy kitty, purr, purr, purr.
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Autumn

The standards of care for TS in America specifically state that the motivation for transition must not be in any way desired because of a perceived improvement in social standing. Wanting to transition so you are taken seriously in business would be one of those reasons.

And the nature of hormone therapy on the brain means you will be a different person after transition.

Spend the money on moving to country with better equality if you aren't a transsexual.
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flexible

Quote from: kyril on March 19, 2010, 02:44:31 PM
I think it would be a good idea for you to spend some time reading the writings of MTF women - see through their eyes what it's like to be a woman inside, but living in a male body and being treated as a man. To put it as concisely as possible, it's intolerable for them.

Reading what you've written though, if you hadn't explicitly said you weren't trans, if you'd instead said you were questioning whether you might be...well, from my perspective, I wouldn't have ruled it out. There was a time in my life when I was trying really hard to pretend to myself and everyone else that I was a woman, and I felt a lot like you say you do and said some very similar things at that time.

Wow really? That's very interesting. No I've always been a woman, I think I can relate to transsexuals though because I get insecure about myself just like they do, perhaps this is a consequence of our natural repressive society, and not specifically to do with gender? Anyway, thankyou for the advice. I will certainly read up on MTF blogs, and hopefully they'll give me some perspective on the issue.
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girl_ashley

Transitioning also isn't meant about making your life easier just for practical purposes such as getting a better job, etc.  You have to really want to be a part of that gender and not just want the benefits.

I would suggest you speak with a gender specialist in your area to help you sort out what you are feeling.
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Arch

Flexible, I've met "real" women, cisgender women, who envy certain aspects of men's lives but would never undertake any kind of physical transformation. I've never met a cisgender woman who would or did. I have heard that there are a few people out there who claim to take testosterone and/or get top surgery as some sort of political or social statement, but I feel that these people would not be able to do that if they didn't feel some sort of gender variance. I could be wrong, but I would call these people transgender just on the basis of that physical transformation. I don't know what they call themselves.

If you did start T and/or have top surgery so you could live as a man, I would see you as a transsexual of sorts because one definition of that word is someone who wants to live in the sex opposite to the one they were assigned at birth. There are a few definitions of "transsexual." That's part of the problem; someone I would think of as transsexual doesn't necessarily see himself that way. It's up to you to define yourself for yourself.

From my perspective, you are somewhere in the transgender world. Have you done any research on transgender issues? Perhaps you can just be a full-time drag king! :P

Since you are definitely "questioning," you might want to find a good gender therapist to help you to sort all of this out. But be warned; if there isn't any kind of informed consent system in your neck of the woods, you will need recommendations from a therapist (possibly two; I'm not sure how it works in some venues) in order to get the physical changes that you think you want, especially if you want surgery. If the therapist says no, then you will have to decide what to do. It really depends on where you live. And a person who sees "herself" as a woman who wants to transition and live as a man might well be classified as mentally ill. I don't know.

I don't recommend that you start any physical changes without the benefit of therapy. Being transsexual and going through transition is a tough road, even for FTMs. I know that this is not absolutely true for absolutely everyone, but I've seen few exceptions. For actual transsexuals, the regret rate is low, but for someone who says she isn't a transsexual...I don't know.

Think about how you see your future life. What physical changes do you expect to make? Will you still see yourself as a woman even when you're living as a man? Will you want to stay legally female? If you feel like a woman and identify as a woman, what will it be like to have that go unrecognized by others? Will your transition make you the target of work discrimination? And what about family and friends and romantic relationships?

I should also point out that for a lot of us, the promise that we'll "still be the same person inside" is a lot of hooey. Take me, for example. In many ways, I've stayed the same. In many ways I've changed. Freeing myself up has changed me and is still changing me. Being seen differently by the world is changing me. The stresses of transition are changing me. Testosterone has definitely changed me in some ways. It's different for everybody.

Therapy should help you to figure out what you want. You might find that you haven't been entirely honest with yourself. A lot of us who do identify ourselves as transsexuals find that out about ourselves. Many of us compartmentalize our lives and have elaborate coping systems. I've been in therapy for over a year and a half, and I've been in transition for just over a year--and I'm still peeling back layers of self-deception. But then I guess my self-deception ran pretty deep. That might not be true of you.

Good luck. I hope you get some useful feedback here.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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flexible

Quote from: Autumn on March 19, 2010, 02:50:32 PM
The standards of care for TS in America specifically state that the motivation for transition must not be in any way desired because of a perceived improvement in social standing. Wanting to transition so you are taken seriously in business would be one of those reasons.

And the nature of hormone therapy on the brain means you will be a different person after transition.

Spend the money on moving to country with better equality if you aren't a transsexual.

Can you elaborate on how hormone therapy affects the brain?

Also, I'm not in America (not even close), so I doubt the motivations for me "transitioning" would pose a problem.
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Arch

Quote from: flexible on March 19, 2010, 03:04:37 PM
Can you elaborate on how hormone therapy affects the brain?

Also, I'm not in America (not even close), so I doubt the motivations for me "transitioning" would pose a problem.

You need to do research on what standards your country adheres to.

Hormone therapy changes people differently. I suggest that you acquire some trans biographies and read what some of those guys say about how they have changed or how they think they've changed. Do some reading online. There are a lot of resources out there. But definitely get some of the "standard" books. Jamison Green, Matt Kailey, Max Wolf Valerio. Guys like them.

I have to say that although I'm trying to keep an open mind here, I have strong reservations about some of your perceptions. For example, you feel that transsexuals are lucky because they get to experience life from both "sides"--living as male and living as female. It's true that many trans people consider this a gift and a unique experience. I don't. It was torture living as a woman because I was not a woman. I turned myself off. I shut down. I got stuck. I turned into a person whose main goal was survival, and that made me selfish to a degree that I'm just beginning to appreciate. I hurt my partner in unfathomable ways. I lied to myself and therefore to him. I hate myself for it. And my career...well, the term "late bloomer" doesn't even begin to cover it, and I've had to decline all sorts of career-enhancing opportunities because I was always barely managing to stay alive.

All those wasted years...no, I do not consider transsexuality a gift. For me it is a curse. It's what I have to work with, but I do NOT consider myself fortunate because I lived as a woman.

I have a strong sense of self. Nothing scares me more than those body snatcher movies in which people stop being themselves, or the Twilight Zone episode in which the girl Marilyn gets a beautiful new body but loses her self in the process and goes from a smart, angsty, and inquiring person to a happy, brainless bimbo. But if I could erase it all, start over and just be a boy. I would do it. I would.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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flexible

Quote from: Arch on March 19, 2010, 03:04:03 PM
Flexible, I've met "real" women, cisgender women, who envy certain aspects of men's lives but would never undertake any kind of physical transformation. I've never met a cisgender woman who would or did. I have heard that there are a few people out there who claim to take testosterone and/or get top surgery as some sort of political or social statement, but I feel that these people would not be able to do that if they didn't feel some sort of gender variance. I could be wrong, but I would call these people transgender just on the basis of that physical transformation. I don't know what they call themselves.

If you did start T and/or have top surgery so you could live as a man, I would see you as a transsexual of sorts because one definition of that word is someone who wants to live in the sex opposite to the one they were assigned at birth. There are a few definitions of "transsexual." That's part of the problem; someone I would think of as transsexual doesn't necessarily see himself that way. It's up to you to define yourself for yourself.

From my perspective, you are somewhere in the transgender world. Have you done any research on transgender issues? Perhaps you can just be a full-time drag king! :P

I've never considered that I might be transsexual! Maybe it's true. I don't know honestly if I would ever actually transition, it's an idea at this point, one escape from the gender biases I face each and everyday. But you're right, "cis" gendered women don't generally consider such things. How would you know for sure? Is there some concrete test? I've never actually, for lack of better word, "felt" like a man, I've always been a girl inside my head, and all the parts fit, so there should be no confusion.

QuoteSince you are definitely "questioning," you might want to find a good gender therapist to help you to sort all of this out. But be warned; if there isn't any kind of informed consent system in your neck of the woods, you will need recommendations from a therapist (possibly two; I'm not sure how it works in some venues) in order to get the physical changes that you think you want, especially if you want surgery. If the therapist says no, then you will have to decide what to do. It really depends on where you live. And a person who sees "herself" as a woman who wants to transition and live as a man might well be classified as mentally ill. I don't know.

I'm not mentally ill, simply curious about alternative possibilities. A gender therapist I fear will label me with some disease, though, so I'm not very inclined to go that route. But I suppose it is a wise suggestion, and I will seriously consider it. Those who have actually been in gender therapy, what actually happens during sessions?

QuoteI don't recommend that you start any physical changes without the benefit of therapy. Being transsexual and going through transition is a tough road, even for FTMs. I know that this is not absolutely true for absolutely everyone, but I've seen few exceptions. For actual transsexuals, the regret rate is low, but for someone who says she isn't a transsexual...I don't know.

Think about how you see your future life. What physical changes do you expect to make?

I want to look like a man. Pass as a man. Be treated with the respect and dignity that men of any class and creed gets treated. I don't want to experience the inequality involved with being female all my life; I want something to change.

QuoteWill you still see yourself as a woman even when you're living as a man?
I guess so..? Not sure if gender identity is actually something you can change. But I don't think it matters very much.
QuoteWill you want to stay legally female?
No.
QuoteIf you feel like a woman and identify as a woman, what will it be like to have that go unrecognized by others?
I think it'll be an improvement upon my current conditions. Whatever I identify as doesn't matter; how I'll be treated will be better. As for what it'll be like for others not treating me as a girl, I think it'll be great. Liberating.

QuoteWill your transition make you the target of work discrimination?
It's a definite possibility, however, I already am discriminated at work as a female, so it can't be much worse.
QuoteAnd what about family and friends and romantic relationships?
I'm not currently involved with anyone, and my family is very kind and open minded, they pretty much don't mind what I do as long as I believe it to be correct. Friends.. well, you can always make new friends, right?

QuoteI should also point out that for a lot of us, the promise that we'll "still be the same person inside" is a lot of hooey. Take me, for example. In many ways, I've stayed the same. In many ways I've changed. Freeing myself up has changed me and is still changing me. Being seen differently by the world is changing me. The stresses of transition are changing me. Testosterone has definitely changed me in some ways. It's different for everybody.

Therapy should help you to figure out what you want. You might find that you haven't been entirely honest with yourself. A lot of us who do identify ourselves as transsexuals find that out about ourselves. Many of us compartmentalize our lives and have elaborate coping systems. I've been in therapy for over a year and a half, and I've been in transition for just over a year--and I'm still peeling back layers of self-deception. But then I guess my self-deception ran pretty deep. That might not be true of you.

Good luck. I hope you get some useful feedback here.

Thanks for your response :) I appreciate the honest insight.
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Nero

Flexible,
May I ask what country you're in? From the sounds of things, you may be better off changing countries than genders.
Your desires are pretty common for oppressed women. Women all throughout history have dressed as men, worked as men, loved as men, etc just to avoid sexism and discrimination. Sexism is very real but I don't believe transitioning to male is the answer. Being a woman in this world is tough. But so is living as a gender you don't belong to.
Please don't feel this is a way out. You have other options.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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K8

As someone who lived most of her life in the wrong gender, I can tell you it is very awkward.  I never passed 100% as a man despite having the anatomy.  It was always a struggle.  Perhaps you will be more successful than I was, but for me living in the wrong gender was awkward at best and sometimes downright miserable.

You do not have to accept your plight as a woman in a male-dominant society, but I think changing genders - while correcting some of your problems - will create so many more for you that I think you will not be happy.

Just my 2 halala. ;)

- Kate
Life is a pilgrimage.
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Alyssa M.

What the hell? Go for it. You wouldn't be the first.

Literature and history are replete with stories of women living as men, from classical Greece to Disney cartoons. Half of Shakespeare's plays seem to involve the idea. Mythologies from cultures around the world contain plenty of such stories. Hillary Swank lived as a man as preparation for her role in "Boys Don't Cry." Daniela Sea lived as a man for a while. Norah Vincent wrote about living as a man for a year in her book, "Self-Made Man."

It can be dangerous, make no mistake. But as long as you're aware and stay safe and don't do anything permanent, the worst that can happen (PROVIDED you are safe, and don't get beaten to death or worse), is that you find it doesn't work for you. Actually -- scratch that: The real the worst that can happen is that you find it does work for you. But you might as well find out.
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another.

   - Anatole France
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arbon

QuoteThose who have actually been in gender therapy, what actually happens during sessions?

I sit, I talk, my wallet gets lighter.
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K8

Quote from: arbon on March 19, 2010, 11:22:04 PM
Quote from: flexible on March 19, 2010, 03:40:08 PM
Those who have actually been in gender therapy, what actually happens during sessions?

I sit, I talk, my wallet gets lighter.

... and the junk in my head gets straightened out and starts making sense. :)

- Kate
Life is a pilgrimage.
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spacial

#16
Post removed.

I should have said these things and I am most sorry to any who have read them.
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HelenW

I don't think it's crazy or silly to want to be treated as an equal in the world.  I suppose, not knowing how painful and debilitating living as one gender when you are really another inside, that the idea might be intriguing to make the switch.  Suffice it to say, while going that route while being ignorant or indifferent to the whole set of consequences might seem a bit insane to those of us who have experienced them, it certainly isn't stupid to question things and wonder about it.

A book by Norah Vincent, Self-Made Man: One Woman's Journey into Manhood and Back might be a good read for you.  She describes an experiment that she did, undergoing a temporary social gender change from female to male and writing about it from a female point of view.  An interesting note, after her "research" she actually signed herself into a mental health facility - it caused that much damage to her psyche.

Ms Vincent is rather unkind to the idea of MtF transsexual people in other ways but I think this book might help you figure out what you'd like to do for yourself.  By all means, a gender therapist, which is not impossible to find in your country, can help you work things out too if you cannot go it alone.  Good luck and fare well, flexible, I hope you find an accommodation to the patriarchy that works for you.

hugs & smiles
Emelye
FKA: Emelye

Pronouns: she/her

My rarely updated blog: http://emelyes-kitchen.blogspot.com

Southwestern New York trans support: http://www.southerntiertrans.org/
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placeholdername

I don't agree with everyone who's jumping in saying 'if you're not transsexual don't even think about it!'

Historically there are numerous accounts of women who did exactly what you are describing -- they were fed up with not being taken seriously as a woman and decided to pretend to be a man in order to 'improve their social standing' usually by means of getting a job they couldn't have otherwise gotten.  Just one example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Tipton

Now in America there is a big improvement in the way women are treated in society, but as you say, not all other countries have those improvements (and others are more improved, sigh).  So no, I don't think it's at all crazy for you to want to try living as a man to see if life would be better for you.

What I will say is that it is an incredibly difficult thing to do if you're doing it for the reasons you're saying.  As a transsexual, it's mostly a matter of aligning the external appearance with the internal identity.  But for what you're talking about, you're basically thinking about living a double life -- one person on the inside and one person on the outside.

It's really not something you can pull off unless you are 110% dedicated.  To be honest, if it's *really* what you want to do, you're going to do it no matter what we say, because otherwise you don't have the dedication required.  And if you have that kind of dedication, then it seems to me like there might be simpler solutions that you would probably be equally capable of doing, so in that case it really might not be the smartest choice.

So I guess what I'm mainly saying is, yes it's possible, no it's not crazy, but is it *really* what you want to do?
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Arch

#19
Quote from: Ketsy on March 20, 2010, 11:12:05 AM
I don't agree with everyone who's jumping in saying 'if you're not transsexual don't even think about it!'

Historically there are numerous accounts of women who did exactly what you are describing -- they were fed up with not being taken seriously as a woman and decided to pretend to be a man in order to 'improve their social standing' usually by means of getting a job they couldn't have otherwise gotten.  Just one example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Tipton
Quite true, Ketsy, but Flexible is talking about becoming legally male and is asking about hormones and such. Billy Tipton and many others like him did not irrevocably alter their bodies. I feel that such alterations require special attention and a great deal of introspection.

I believe that these days we actually have a much stricter view of what "passes" as male (and perhaps female, but I won't consider that here) than in the past. In the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, male clothing was a much more definitive marker of male gender than it is now. Occupations had the same effect. And people didn't have HRT and modern medical advances back then; a short man with a high voice could still be seen as a man if he wore male clothing, had a male occupation (and wasn't a complete failure at it), adopted some stereotypical male mannerisms, and didn't have any really obvious cleavage. He wouldn't have to worry about identification documents, either.

It's harder today to pull a Billy Tipton, at least in America. I don't know if it would be as hard in Flexible's country, but I suspect that it might be.

Anyway...
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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