If I may suggest, the irrational ones are those that pay any attention.

Sadly, while most people will claim to know what the Bible says, few have ever read it. This is evideced by the numbers who believe such nonsense.

When soldiers were lined up, just before being sent to the front, in WW1, priests and clergy from all denominations blessed their guns!

Those that have read the Gospels will know how utterly preposterus this was.

Odd.  After telling me to get over myself, you come around to say (in a whole lot more words) just what I said.  If you don't believe, then these people have no power.  We all just need, as is being done in a lot of places, and in a lot of ways, right now - that we don't believe, and it's high time that those who do, lose what power they have.

Oh, get over yourselves, you two. Sigh. 

Yeah, you're right.

My comment was directed at a different point but it was arrogant.

I apologise tekla. I shouldn't have said that.

Well, I think most all here can agree a very effective method of combating and even neutralizing the phobes is by listening to what they say, finding contradictions in their evidence sources and presenting it to them in a very matter of fact way.  It may be more satisfying to tell them they are kooks but it will just fall on deaf ears.

That guy who made the "abnormals" comment looked like it would take a lot of deprogramming to shake him of his beliefs.  Some people you just have to leave behind.  But there are people who aren't quite so closed minded and they are the ones we should focus on and engage in intelligent conversation.

"Please explain to me the foundation of your beliefs.  I want to understand." 
Then we can identify the weaknesses in their defense. 

Quote from: Julie Marie on March 20, 2010, 09:24:06 AM
But there are people who aren't quite so closed minded and they are the ones we should focus on and engage in intelligent conversation.

"Please explain to me the foundation of your beliefs.  I want to understand."

Well honestly I find few on either side who are open to this kind of dialogue.  Should it be done?  Absolutely.  Listening to each other is the way to form a relationship that can lead to change.  It takes hard work.  Understanding will not come by mud slinging or by relegating others to the realm of stupidity.  Can it be accomplished?  Sure it can.  Do people on either side really want to?  I have my doubts. 

Kristi

What really gets me is how christians pick and choose what they want from the bible. I want to know why it is okay to pick and choose from the bible. Some pick just the good (most do, in fact). If you believe in the word of god then you MUST acknowledge things like:

Stoning a child to death for talking back
Forcing a woman who was raped to marry her attacker
Own slaves
Discuss incest with your children
God was an angry jealous bloodthirsty killer and not just 'god is love'.
Kill Homosexuals
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
Kill Followers of Other Religions
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath

Incest was rampant in my family amongst the children. We could have ussed a talk about incest as kids....

Quote from: Dana Lane on March 20, 2010, 11:06:36 AM
If you believe in the word of god then you MUST acknowledge things like:

Stoning a child to death for talking back
Forcing a woman who was raped to marry her attacker
Own slaves
Discuss incest with your children
God was an angry jealous bloodthirsty killer and not just 'god is love'.
Kill Homosexuals
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
Kill Followers of Other Religions
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath

Here is a good example of the unhelpful types of comments I see here.  This is patently untrue.  And there are perfectly valid reasons why it is not true.  Perhaps in another discussion we could talk about it if interested.  But instead of telling someone what she or he MUST believe (which fundamentalists are also fond of doing) why not ask good questions?  For instance, why not ASK questions such as:

- Why do you not believe in killing those who work on the sabbath or who are married and not virgins?
- What do you believe the Bible teaches about slavery?
- How do you make decisions about the relevance of various scripture passages in today's culture?

Maybe you get the idea.  I just don't know.  It is so much fun to demonize all of us who are Christians and put these kinds of words in our mouths.  But if you do that, don't ever expect things to change, for you are as guilty as the "other" side when they say reprehensible and untrue things about the trans community. 

But I guess the higher way takes work.  It takes courage and fairness.  It means avoiding the easy characterizations in favor of understanding. 

Please understand that I totally respect and support your right to believe or not believe whatever you please.  I would never tell someone what they MUST believe.  All I hope is that you return the favor by being a person who shows respect to the dignity of others.  That means not putting words in others' mouths, and it means if you care enough to write about, please care enough to understand it. 

Peace,
Kristi

- What do you believe the Bible teaches about slavery?

I believe, in fact I know, that the Bible tells you and me that slavery is A-OK.  There are some limits to it, some rule to be abided by, but it's OK to own human beings according to both the old and the new testaments.  The Bible was the number one justification for slavery in the antebellum South.

Quote from: Kristi on March 20, 2010, 08:15:02 PM
Here is a good example of the unhelpful types of comments I see here.  This is patently untrue.  And there are perfectly valid reasons why it is not true.  Perhaps in another discussion we could talk about it if interested.  But instead of telling someone what she or he MUST believe (which fundamentalists are also fond of doing) why not ask good questions?  For instance, why not ASK questions such as:

- Why do you not believe in killing those who work on the sabbath or who are married and not virgins?
- What do you believe the Bible teaches about slavery?
- How do you make decisions about the relevance of various scripture passages in today's culture?

Maybe you get the idea.  I just don't know.  It is so much fun to demonize all of us who are Christians and put these kinds of words in our mouths.  But if you do that, don't ever expect things to change, for you are as guilty as the "other" side when they say reprehensible and untrue things about the trans community. 

But I guess the higher way takes work.  It takes courage and fairness.  It means avoiding the easy characterizations in favor of understanding. 

Please understand that I totally respect and support your right to believe or not believe whatever you please.  I would never tell someone what they MUST believe.  All I hope is that you return the favor by being a person who shows respect to the dignity of others.  That means not putting words in others' mouths, and it means if you care enough to write about, please care enough to understand it. 

Peace,
Kristi

This is the core of what makes today's christian. They pick and choose what makes them feel good or that they can use against someone to cast them as a sinner. If these are laws put forth by god why are people able to pick and choose which ones?

Quote from: Dana Lane on March 21, 2010, 05:03:32 AM
This is the core of what makes today's christian. They pick and choose what makes them feel good or that they can use against someone to cast them as a sinner. If these are laws put forth by god why are people able to pick and choose which ones?

Sadly, even the way you phrase your comment hows how very little you know about the Bible or Christians.  Is your question genuine, or is it rhetorical? 

Quote from: Kristi on March 21, 2010, 06:26:14 AM
Sadly, even the way you phrase your comment hows how very little you know about the Bible or Christians.  Is your question genuine, or is it rhetorical?

The question is a question. Why is it okay to pick and choose? Picking and choosing is what shows the word of god to be insignificant.  Otherwise all his words would be followed. Most christians do not actually read the bible and if they do they turn a blind eye to the horrific atrocities in it and just pick out the good parts. Either it is the word of god or it is not.

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Post Merge: March 21, 2010, 06:38:52 AM

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Quote from: Kristi on March 21, 2010, 06:26:14 AM
Sadly, even the way you phrase your comment hows how very little you know about the Bible or Christians.  Is your question genuine, or is it rhetorical?

and btw, reading the bible and listening to it on cassette is how I became an atheist. So I have read more of the bible than a lot of others have.

I am with Dana on this one.
I was raised to be an Elder in my church. I have spent literaly years in the bible and know what I figured out?
The christians are violating the word of god on a daily bassis. Christ said he came not to dicount the prophacy but to deliver it. (paraphrased!) Nowhere in thew new testament did christ say people no longer needed to follow Levitical laws.
Christians shave and they do not kill unruley children and when they wage war they are suposed to commit genocide....All of these are downright orders from god that go ignored by modern christendom.

I find it interesting that a thread titled "We don't want abnormals" has focused so strongly on the second half of my original post - using religious beliefs to condemn people.  But I suppose it's possible the man who made the abnormals comment did so because of his religious beliefs.

As for me, the whole argument about what the bible says and what it means is meaningless.  I'm a very literal person, I've read enough of the bible to know it's not a good source for religious guidance; too many contradictions, too much need for interpretation, too many negative messages, too much focusing on suffering.  To me, the bible is nothing more than a history book, based on the accounts of many people over hundreds of years.  It has a lot of hearsay in it.  So the entire discussion about what the bible says and what it means has no effect on my personal beliefs or how I live my life.  I use it only to discuss the prejudice and discrimination and the passing of judgment other people justify by quoting it.

It's easy to live a good life.  All you have to do is be kind. 

What bothers me about bible thumpers is they take things out of context and make it sound like god came down from the heavens and told them personally.  If the same person say Quasar from the planet Neutron told them something, we'd consider them a kook.  (Maybe that's why many of the fervent bible thumpers are called kooks.)  But these people justify their intolerance, their prejudice, their hatred and their ignorance by reaching for "the good book" and finding something in it and quoting it.  And they may actually believe they are doing good, although I believe deep in their heart they know better.

The man called Jesus Christ, according to those who knew him, or claimed to know him, seemed to have lead a pretty good life.  He knew how to be kind to people.  He knew acceptance was better than rejection.  It seems he had a very good heart. 

But sadly, we will never know his thoughts.  To the best of my knowledge, nothing he may have written has survived.  All accounts of him and his life are from the eyes of others and that's not the best way to get to know someone.  I would love to read things he had written.

Still, most of us don't need Christ or Buddha or some sort of messiah to know the difference between right and wrong.  We know it from within, in our hearts.  Maybe that's where God really lives, within each of us.  That is a lot easier for me to accept than reaching for an ancient book and using that for the foundation of how I live my life.

But that's just me.

I thought the point of this topic was about Susan Stanton.  However, if Julie wants to discuss this here I guess it is OK.  What I don't want to do here is to get into a Bible verse battle.  Another time perhaps, but we can start another topic for that.  What I will do is give you a very brief interpretive framework.

It may surprise you to know that there are two parts to the Christian Bible, an Old and a New Testament.  Each is composed of various books by different authors.    The Old Testament is the scripture that we Christians share with the Jews, originally written in Hebrew.  The New Testament was written in Greek and contains the scriptures which teach about Jesus.

So what is the relationship between the Old and the New?  Very simple.  According to the New Testament, the Old Testament was fulfilled in life and ministry of Jesus.  Their value to us today is in their symbolism, as the teach us what was made clearer in the New Testament.  In the Old Testament we were made righteous by the sacrificial system, dietary laws, and the keeping of certain rituals.  However, all of those things having now been fulfilled, under the New Testament, we are made righteous in a new way, by the sacrifice of Christ.  All of the Old was made perfect in the New when Jesus voluntarily became our sacrifice.

All of this means that for us, while there may be lessons to be learned by the Old Testament, its code of conduct, its sacrificial system, its dietary laws, and its rituals are no longer binding on Christians.  Rather, we have a new guide, the New Testament, especially the life and example of Jesus.  Put another way, what the Old Testament taught in an incomplete way, we see fleshed out in the life and ministry of Jesus. 

Those who seem to pick various Old Testament laws and saddle Christians with them show that they do not understand this very basic tenet of Christianity.    I am appalled both by the individual who stood and made that comment on behalf of Christianity, as well as some of the comments here by some who claim to be biblical experts while making such basic errors in interpretation.

Obviously this is a rather deep subject and if you wish to discuss it further I will start a new topic where we can do so.  The early church, as recorded in the New Testament, struggled with this issue as well.  But the principles they developed are well recorded and are the basis for what we believe in the area.

Peace,
Kristi

Some religious leaders are highly educated; others are obviously not. However, very, very few religious people seem to make any serious independent attempt at understanding theology, or even just acquiring a comprehensive knowledge of their holy texts.Thus, I'm always skeptical when ordinary people claim to base their beliefs, or even their entire lives, on long, complicated, ancient and difficult to translate holy books. Religion is more of a cultural practice than it is a mass of people who have agreed to each make a diligent attempt to understand and follow a holy book. Understandings tend to be heavily shaped by cultural memetics and assumptions, to the point of being able to directly contradict the most obvious interpretations of a text in favor of seemingly contradictory and obscure meanings.

Yes, perhaps a new thread should be formed.

Quote from: Kristi on March 21, 2010, 10:04:49 PM
I thought the point of this topic was about Susan Stanton.  However, if Julie wants to discuss this here I guess it is OK.  What I don't want to do here is to get into a Bible verse battle.  Another time perhaps, but we can start another topic for that.  What I will do is give you a very brief interpretive framework.

It may surprise you to know that there are two parts to the Christian Bible, an Old and a New Testament.  Each is composed of various books by different authors.    The Old Testament is the scripture that we Christians share with the Jews, originally written in Hebrew.  The New Testament was written in Greek and contains the scriptures which teach about Jesus.

So what is the relationship between the Old and the New?  Very simple.  According to the New Testament, the Old Testament was fulfilled in life and ministry of Jesus.  Their value to us today is in their symbolism, as the teach us what was made clearer in the New Testament.  In the Old Testament we were made righteous by the sacrificial system, dietary laws, and the keeping of certain rituals.  However, all of those things having now been fulfilled, under the New Testament, we are made righteous in a new way, by the sacrifice of Christ.  All of the Old was made perfect in the New when Jesus voluntarily became our sacrifice.

All of this means that for us, while there may be lessons to be learned by the Old Testament, its code of conduct, its sacrificial system, its dietary laws, and its rituals are no longer binding on Christians.  Rather, we have a new guide, the New Testament, especially the life and example of Jesus.  Put another way, what the Old Testament taught in an incomplete way, we see fleshed out in the life and ministry of Jesus. 

Those who seem to pick various Old Testament laws and saddle Christians with them show that they do not understand this very basic tenet of Christianity.    I am appalled both by the individual who stood and made that comment on behalf of Christianity, as well as some of the comments here by some who claim to be biblical experts while making such basic errors in interpretation.

Obviously this is a rather deep subject and if you wish to discuss it further I will start a new topic where we can do so.  The early church, as recorded in the New Testament, struggled with this issue as well.  But the principles they developed are well recorded and are the basis for what we believe in the area.

Peace,
Kristi

None of this changes who god is and was. Of course over time the original version of the bible would be too hard to swallow so there was no choice but to change it. Humans wrote the bible, humans voted on what went into the bible or stayed out of the bible.

You were 'offended' by what I said and what I said came right out of the bible. Let me ask you something. Me being an atheist how offended do you think I am on a daily basis having to live in a christian world?

And everything I said still stands. If you believe the bible is the word of god then you have to accept all of it and not just the glittery make me feel good stuff.

I wrote my comment when I was very angry and had  been cruelly insulted by religous cretins a short time before.

I do not wish to place my belief or rather lack of them above anyone elses belief. That would be arrogant. I have sat in Intensive Care Units and listened to the prayers that a family pours over a loved one. I would never desire to remove that comfort.
I had a friend whose 15 year old son was killed in a car crash, she was and is a Mormon. I religion that I regard as very strange. It gave her comfort. What type of human would I be to remove that?

I do not believe in fairies, ghosts, UFO's, little green men, vampires, and a host of strange and non-provable events. But it is and was wrong of me to criticise those who get comfort from such beliefs. After all I'm going to society and telling it that I am female, many do not believe me. Does that make my statement or belief false?

"We do not want abnormals" Julie kins pointed out that many of us jumped on the religous aspect. I have been think of the comment again. The comment is not a religous abomination, it is firmly anti-human. Through out history there have been evil groups who have decided they are 'normal' and the rest are not. In the USA the racial injustice is obvious, the hate between taliban christian and others is obvious, Klu Klux Klan, people who are willing to murder Doctors who perform abortion, so that they  can save lives .

In my country it is very much the same. The intolerance and down right passive genocide of out indigenous people.

In Nazi germany, not only were the Jews picked for extermination but anyone who did not fill the Aryan ideal was also for selection.

And of course there are so many examples from every country and culture.

Many people do not want to have abnormals - people who are not like them.

Try pushing a wheelchair with an obviously disabled person in it. At best you will be ignored, usually you are not even seen, or recieve the 'get out of my way and why isn't it in a home somewhere' attitude. Yes. How many of us can look in the mirror and be true to the belief that many correspondents are suggesting:

"I will accept the abnormal"

Fine. Demonstrate it in your life. Demonstrate it at all times.

I am abnormal. I want to be accepted in life and not just on a board of people who have the same 'problem'.

BTW I'm now just finishing my first week on E and feeling weird in the brain.

Cindy

Quote from: Dana Lane on March 22, 2010, 02:57:40 AM
You were 'offended' by what I said and what I said came right out of the bible. Let me ask you something. Me being an atheist how offended do you think I am on a daily basis having to live in a christian world?

And everything I said still stands. If you believe the bible is the word of god then you have to accept all of it and not just the glittery make me feel good stuff.

First, you do not live in a Christian world.  Far from it.  Second, I am not offended by you, as I firmly support your right to believe or not, as you choose.  Why do you have such a hard time allowing me the same freedom?

I have never believed that God has changed and never said so.  What has changed is our understanding.  As time has progressed, our understanding has become clearer and clearer.  Most people seem fine with the idea that science unfolded this way, but scoff that religious thought could have.  This particular doctrine is called "progressive revelation" and you can look it up if you are interested.

What does offend me, as I said, is when someone goes against one of the most basic tenets of Christian interpretation (which I outlined) and still claims to be knowledgeable.  I, for one, refuse to own the results of bigotry or intellectual laziness.  I have little respect for anyone who checks her or his brain at the doorway of religious discussion.  Yes, openness and education takes hard work.  It is not popular, here or elsewhere.  Hatred is always the easy path, as Cindy pointed out.  Hold your views all you want, just be honest about claiming to know things about which you clearly know little.  And please refrain from telling anyone what she or he must believe.  You do not have this right, and never will.

Peace,
Kristi