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Cultural acceptance of ->-bleeped-<- in Samoa

Started by heatherrose, August 24, 2009, 06:56:08 PM

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heatherrose




After watching this video, it was disappointing to read the comments of people
who supposedly live in more "modern, forward thinking, inclusive" culture.

Sex Change Surgery


"I have always wanted to have a neighbor just like you,
I've always wanted to live in a neighborhood with you.

So let's make the most of this beautiful day,
Since we're together, we might as well say,
Would you be mine?
Could you be mine?
Won't you be my neighbor?" - Fred Rogers
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gennee

Interesting. This was common in Native-American tribes, also. I am part Choctaw and believe that I'm fulfilling an Indian prophecy.

Gennee

:)
Be who you are.
Make a difference by being a difference.   :)

Blog: www.difecta.blogspot.com
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Shana

The one thing that gave me chills was the idea that "If there aren't enough girls to to the chores, make one from a boy in the family"..  I don't know if this was just simplification by the writer/narrator or the cultural attitude.

We have been since recorded history.. sometimes revered, sometimes reviled, sometimes tolerated.. sometimes accepted depending upon culture, belief, and the needs of the people. The only thing constant is change.

Gennee, could you please share the Choctaw prophecy? I would love to hear it as a student of human beliefs as regards the divine.
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V M

That is a rather interesting vid. I've known a few Samoans, they never mentioned that part of their culture. They throw great parties though  :laugh:
The main things to remember in life are Love, Kindness, Understanding and Respect - Always make forward progress

Superficial fanny kissing friends are a dime a dozen, a TRUE FRIEND however is PRICELESS


- V M
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aisha

Quote from: gennee on August 28, 2009, 03:59:25 PM
Interesting. This was common in Native-American tribes, also. I am part Choctaw and believe that I'm fulfilling an Indian prophecy.

Gennee

:)

wow Gennee you're part Choctaw? I have some Choctaw ancestry too, and also really feel connected to the Pomo people through a dream that I had, I didn't realize either tribe had two-spirit traditions until today, and now I read this post.. hmm, interesting huh? Anyways I'd love to hear from you.

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Washu Chan

Most indigenous cultures I have studied have a far more liberal attitude to homosexuality and transgendered people.

I think western culture could learn some valuable lessons from these people that they used to dismiss as "primitive".

But that said I want to go on holidays in Samoa now, it seems like a wonderfully welcoming society.
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gennee

Gender doesn't follow a linear pattern. Western culture has the idea that people who don't symbolize what it represents are deemed 'defective' or less than acceptable. One reason I believe that you have a lot of anorexic girls is that they are trying to represent some 'ideal' that they will never be.

How many transgender people have committed suicide because of society's refusal to accept that we are differently gendered?  I'm not surprised that transgender people have rejected the bible and Christianity because the church has told them that God doesn''t love them. One promise I made is that I will not go back into the closet. I'm not ashamed of being transgender. I'm educating others about transgender topics.

Gennee
Be who you are.
Make a difference by being a difference.   :)

Blog: www.difecta.blogspot.com
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Lea Frost

Hi all,

I am actually new to this forum, and joined specifically to comment on this post. Being Samoan descendant, and transgendered(MTF), my input may be of some use to anyone who would read this thread.

The Fa'afafine (pron: fah-ah-fa-feeneh)

For those of you who are not familiar with this term.. It is the word that is popularly used to describe a person who is of a "third gender" as apposed to describing ->-bleeped-<- as it is known in the West. Usually, it is used in reference to a boy, who exhibits particularly effeminate mannerisms, and behaviours, and one who would seek assimilation into the Samoan woman's role. The reason why the fa'afafine has such a prominent role in Samoan society, is because pre-christian Samoa, through its family traditions, learned to recognize these traits in a person, and utilize them to the benefits of the most important thing in Samoan culture, which is family.

The role of the woman in Samoan culture is of the utmost importance, and there is a clear line drawn between what is the role of the woman, and what is the role of the man. And because each gender is pre-associated with these roles, there is a consensus of course with the samoan people, to assimilate each person into their cultural role, so as to keep, and maintain a productivity within the family group, and to uphold pride, and respect in doing so(as Samoan families are often measured, and judged in society, by their productivity with money, the church, business dealings, land ownership, overall prosperity and so on).

Because Samoan culture is so heavily steeped in tradition, as apposed to the western idea of "I will make what of it, when I get to it", we will see that Samoan culture is, for the most part, discarding of the western view of ->-bleeped-<- in relation to the fa'afafine. Just like we seek the knowledge in study of society in scientific findings, Samoan culture does the same with it's tradition. And tradition tells them that 'yes, a male may be born with effeminate behaviours', but that they still must have a place in society that is fitting to their identity as fa'afafine.

The fa'afafine is not treated, as such, for dysphoria, and that is simply because they are assimilated at the first signs of effeminacy.. which happens to be at a young age. Though a varying percentage of fa'afafine will seek to transition in countries like the US, and NZ, a good deal of fa'afafine will stay in Samoa, where transgendered persons services are not nearly as available, as they are in the West. The reasons may vary from financial, and family difficulties or responsibility, to other hardships, but there is a definite consensus that because the fa'afafine is so well assimilated into Samoan society, that the fa'afafine themselves accept their physical state, and have a contentment in themselves, because their role is so well defined, and outlined to them from a young age, and very rarely experience rejection of the sorts found in Western families.

Because the lines between what a male does, and what a female does, is not nearly as blurred in Samoan culture, as it is in the West, the ability to 'tell' that your child is fa'afafine is very obvious early on in childhood. Because the fa'afafine is not uncommon, or unknown to Samoan society, the approach taken in dealing with the fa'afafine child is widely known. Or at the least, the information is available through many family, and tribal sources throughout the community.

You might notice that when referencing the word "fa'afafine", that I use it in a descriptive sense, similar to the way that we use "the female...", and "the male..." fa'afafine is used in very much the same way.

As for comments of "If there aren't enough girls to do the chores, make one from a boy in the family". This is obviously sensationalistic generalization from a western point of view.

None of this is resulted of scientific study of the fa'afafine, and it's surrounding traditions, but has been found, and learned through the traditional knowledge that was passed from my mother, a direct descendant(chiefs daughter[Taupo]) of the Manono chieftain, down to me.

Best wishes, kindest regards, and big kudos to all participants of this forum! There is clearly some great work, between great thinkers being done here, and this place has my ovation!

Thanks, Lea
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V M

That is rather interesting Lea

Welcome to Susan's {{{HUGS}}}  :)
The main things to remember in life are Love, Kindness, Understanding and Respect - Always make forward progress

Superficial fanny kissing friends are a dime a dozen, a TRUE FRIEND however is PRICELESS


- V M
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cynthialee

Lea,
I figured it was something like what you described.
Doing such an injustice as forcing a cismale into a female role wouldn't make sense. So I pretty much dismissed the forced feminizing angle as bullsh** sensationalism.
TY for the input.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'
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Lea Frost

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V M

I was glad to hear from someone with actual knowledge and experience also...

Thank you for clarifying some things Lea  :)
The main things to remember in life are Love, Kindness, Understanding and Respect - Always make forward progress

Superficial fanny kissing friends are a dime a dozen, a TRUE FRIEND however is PRICELESS


- V M
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heatherrose

Lea,



Thank-you for the insightful clarification and welcome to Susans.
As I finished reading your description of the role of the Fa'afafine
in Samoan society and how born males who exhibit effeminate traits
in their youth are "shuffled" into the "Fa'afafine deck", it occurred
to me that I would be interested to know if born females who exhibit
masculine traits are labeled as being a third gender similar to their
born male counterparts? Also, you mentioned that some Fa'afafine
do transition, how are they accepted in Samoan society? Are they
accepted as women or are they considered Fa'afafine, a third gender?



"I have always wanted to have a neighbor just like you,
I've always wanted to live in a neighborhood with you.

So let's make the most of this beautiful day,
Since we're together, we might as well say,
Would you be mine?
Could you be mine?
Won't you be my neighbor?" - Fred Rogers
  •  

cynthialee

I was gonna ask that one about the manly girls but I forgot...Good thing I ain't the only one asking questions.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'
  •  

Lea Frost

Hi Heatherrose, thanks for your feedback, and input. It is an interesting question, because honestly, I have never met, nor have I ever been taught about the genetic female equivalent of the fa'afafine. I will have to ask my mum next time I talk with her, and I'll come back with some answers on that one. As for acceptance of transgendered women in Samoa, it is as common as accepting the fa'afafine. In Samoa, if you are transgendered(MTF), then the only equivalent is the fa'afafine. The role of woman in Samoa, is not the same as the role of woman here in the west. So when you ask "Will they be accepted as women..", my answer is, that fa'afafine is a facet of woman... So "yes", they are accepted as women, and many of them will marry as women, and live out their lives as women.

While here in the west, we do our best to not acknowledge our past living in the opposite gender role. In Samoa, the fa'afafine is not forced to live the lie that we most often bare in west, and are accepted as women/girls from the get-go. So while fa'afafine is considered a "third gender", they are considered women after all. The term fa'afafine simply acknowledges that they are not genetic females, but as it is in the west, the fa'afafine is not persecuted for this fact. Quite the opposite actually. While the fa'afafine may be a topic of friendly humour to some in society(like children, and adolescents), the fa'afafine is highly respected for her role in family, and community affairs.

She will no doubt have the complete love, and support of her family, and wider acceptance of the community.

Hope this helps, and ill hopefully return with an answer to your other question.

Cheers, Lea 
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heatherrose

Lea,


You mentioned that "Pre-christian Samoan" families traditionally accepted their
effeminate born males as naturally belonging to the Fa'afafine "class", has this
attitude changed any "Post-Christianity"? How is homosexuality viewed in
Samoa? You said that some Fa'afafine marry, is there gay marriage in Samoa?
"I have always wanted to have a neighbor just like you,
I've always wanted to live in a neighborhood with you.

So let's make the most of this beautiful day,
Since we're together, we might as well say,
Would you be mine?
Could you be mine?
Won't you be my neighbor?" - Fred Rogers
  •