Quote from: Kristi on March 22, 2010, 07:26:16 AM
First, you do not live in a Christian world.  Far from it.  Second, I am not offended by you, as I firmly support your right to believe or not, as you choose.  Why do you have such a hard time allowing me the same freedom?

I have never believed that God has changed and never said so.  What has changed is our understanding.  As time has progressed, our understanding has become clearer and clearer.  Most people seem fine with the idea that science unfolded this way, but scoff that religious thought could have.  This particular doctrine is called "progressive revelation" and you can look it up if you are interested.

What does offend me, as I said, is when someone goes against one of the most basic tenets of Christian interpretation (which I outlined) and still claims to be knowledgeable.  I, for one, refuse to own the results of bigotry or intellectual laziness.  I have little respect for anyone who checks her or his brain at the doorway of religious discussion.  Yes, openness and education takes hard work.  It is not popular, here or elsewhere.  Hatred is always the easy path, as Cindy pointed out.  Hold your views all you want, just be honest about claiming to know things about which you clearly know little.  And please refrain from telling anyone what she or he must believe.  You do not have this right, and never will.

Peace,
Kristi

I can't tell if you just called me stupid, a bigot or a lazy intellectual or all three. First of all I had already told you that I found atheism through the bible. Just because I don't believe your interpretation does not make me lazy. I did the research I needed. I find it hard to believe that the truth is so hard to see in it. There is a HUGE disconnect between the bible and what we can actually see with our own eyes.

Quote
" I have little respect for anyone who checks her or his brain at the doorway of religious discussion."

I will just close my side of this discussion because this is ridiculous. Sorry.  Have the last word. I am done.

Quote from: Dana Lane on March 22, 2010, 08:18:52 AM
I will just close my side of this discussion because this is ridiculous. Sorry.  Have the last word. I am done.

Sad.  The only part of my comment directed specifically at you was the last sentence.  You twice said what I have to believe.  I have never done that to anyone and never will.

The rest was directed primarily at the individual in the report, whom I said at the outset I disagreed with.  You said you really wanted to know why, so I answered.  I guess your question was not a question after all.

Peace,
Kristi

QuoteI thought the point of this topic was about Susan Stanton.

Actually, its is about a man who called trans people abnormal and a minister who claimed to know the thoughts of Jesus and said Jesus would fire Susan Stanton if he were here today.  So it is very much about religious beliefs and how they influence people and how those people validate their prejudice and hatred, often by quoting the bible.

An intelligent discussion can easily be had about religious beliefs and how they affect our lives provided no one takes what another says personally.  This is not about which beliefs are right, only about how certain beliefs negatively affect those who live in contrast to those beliefs.

In contrary to the Principles of Democracy, the U.S. is a country where majority rules. 

According to the Pew Forum On Religion and Public Life, 78% of people in the U.S. identify as christian.  (See the chart below.)  While we may not live in a christian world, those in the U.S. definitely live in a christian country. 


We know the RCC and the LDS are anti-LGBT.  They have made that clear.  And it's safe to assume that sentiment trickles into other people's beliefs to some degree or another.  Trans people experience discrimination to a very high degree.  Susan Stanton lost her job because she was trans and some minister used Jesus to validate that firing.  It happens all the time.  In this case, it happened on film.

If the LGBT Community, especially the T, expects to enjoy the same rights and privileges as the rest of the country, we need to educate and the people we will most likely be educating will be christians.  The most vocal in their anti-LGBT sentiment are christians and their organizations donate to and fund almost every anti-LGBT campaign.  This is fact.

When I watched the Largo, FL city council hold hearings regarding Susan Stanton's ability to perform a job she did well for 14 years, prior to announcing she was trans, I saw the citizens speak at the podium about their feelings.  No one questioned whether the man, Steven Stanton, who performed that job previously, was fit.  Most people talked about the sudden change surrounding her announcement.

There was a few who stated her gender identity should not influence the council's decision and odds are most of them are christian.  But there was also many who stated she was unfit to do the job and should be fired and odds are most of them are christian.  The two that stood out the most in my mind were the old man ("abnormal") and the minister.  They were the most adamant in their anti-trans sentiment.

The council then voted and Stanton was fired.  I know the feeling and many trans people I know who came out at work know that too.  How someone lives their life is unimportant to me unless it affects my life.  When a majority perpetuates a negative stigma, passes laws that hurt me or fails to pass laws that would prevent me from being hurt and in general hampers my ability to live a life the same as they have, then I have a problem.  The Constitution gives me the right to pursue happiness.  No citizen or group of citizens should impede my way or the way of any other citizen.

I fully understand that the self-identifying christians who hamper the ability of law abiding, capable and hard working citizens of this country just because of their religious beliefs does not constitute 100% of all christians but the percent it does is substantial.

The Jesus Christ I learned about was loving, accepting, helpful and respectful of all of God's creations.  The so-called christians I have a problem with do not follow what I understand his teachings were.  That minister who spoke at Stanton's "tribunal" does not follow the teachings of Christ, at least he didn't when he spoke about Stanton.  And he, and others like him, were largely in part the reason why she was fired.  That's a problem.

My issue with the minister at the hearings he said Jesus wanted Stanton terminated. The way he said it I did not hear fire Stanton, I was hearing kill Stanton.

FWIW, some of the comments in question can be seen here:
http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2009/04/23/cnn.name.steven.cnn.html

I am still incensed that these things would be said and done, even implicitly, in the name of Christ.  Perhaps that is one thing on which we might all be able to agree.

Peace,
Kristi

Quote from: Kristi on March 22, 2010, 10:01:13 AM
FWIW, some of the comments in question can be seen here:
http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2009/04/23/cnn.name.steven.cnn.html

Oh yeah, I forgot about the woman who said, "Fire him or give him more testosterone and let's move on."

Fun gal! 

I think most of this can be summed up in two words.  It's Florida. 

Florida, making California look sane for decades upon decades now.