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The mind-body problem.

Started by brainiac, March 17, 2010, 11:53:54 AM

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brainiac

Quote from: lisagurl on March 18, 2010, 12:03:59 PM
But reality is not just what one experiences. Reality is the common bond of everything. Things have color and make noise if you experience them or not. Life does not end in your head. Life is more than just one person just as reality is more than one person.

So when you drop acid you make a reality that is common to everything. You need to learn the difference between imagination and reality.

Our brains are subject to everything around us as well as to any thing we touch and eat. That does not make a real reality only an artificial one based on input and imagination. Garbage in garbage out.
I'm not sure we're at odds here. I think it's really a matter of semantics and what each of us mean by color and noise.

Say there was an alien who had a sense that resembles our sense of smell, except it takes in wavelengths of light instead of particles of stuff. When we see red, it smells something. Which part is "redness"? Is it the wavelengths that we interpret as red, or our subjective experience of it?

What I think is that while there is an "objective reality" that we all share, we can never actually know it, since it has to be filtered through our flawed, economical brains first. There's a lot of stuff in perception where our brains create illusions to make sense of the world that USUALLY work, but in certain situations break down. I could dig up examples if you're interested.
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lisagurl

QuoteI think it's really a matter of semantics and what each of us mean by color and noise.

Not a matter of semantics but what is real and what you perceive as real. The world does not revolve around humans either does the universe. There is a reality out there that effects our mind and what we perceive. Ever here of the butterfly effect? We may think that our personal reality is not part of the universe and it us all in our heads but our life extends outside our heads into all that we are not even aware of. To only look into our brains is a grave error on the part of neuroscientists they are missing the whole picture and will sometime in the future realize their mistake. Reductionist or not Alva Noe is a professor at Berkeley perhaps you need to acquainted with his work such as in the book " Action in Perception"
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armozel

I would like to show a little story. A story of how life might have evolved on this planet we call home.



This story may seem not have anything to say about consciousness and its role, but it does in an important context of the definition of consciousness: awareness of one's environment (of one's self comes later as full sentience). The modern analogs to the prototypes have unique features that relate to the idea of consciousness. These features are sensitivity to light and the cytoskeleton.

To explain, photosensitivity evolved in a hostile environment in which the atmosphere of the ancient Earth had no ozone layer to protect life from the ionizing effects of ultraviolet radiation. But the same life still depended upon the use of the energy of the Sun to survive (along with the use of geothermal energy of volcanic vents). So, a compromise resulted: a cell would float in just the right depth of water that allowed for light to penetrate to aside metabolism but not too shallow otherwise it would be killed and not too deep or it would starve to death. Simply put, this mechanism allowed even a simple single celled organism to be aware of its environment and to behave in a complex manner unlike its prototype ancestors as shown in the demonstration video link. In fact, the very genes related to photosensitivity are found in the majority of life on the planet and as a result is the basis of eye sight in every animal on Earth. A simple adaptation with no nervous system, no neurons, and no memory allowed for a cell to behave intelligently.

Another example is the cytoskeleton. This structure is unique in the fact that its obvious role is to support the weight and shape of a cell's wall. But what is not obvious is two other features. First, its role as a 'highway' of sorts for molecules in the cell, which allow for more efficient and fast use of molecules in the life cycle of a cell. Second, the natural composition of such a cytoskeleton results in the same behavior found in carbon nanotubes: conductivity. What this second feature of the cytoskeleton results in the ability of a cell to 'know' where its being touched by another cell or natural barrier in the environment. That means a cell which could be equiped with a flagella could know exactly what side of its is being touched and where to go as to not be touched (as to not be eaten/killed). This particular feature of the cytoskeleton results in another hint or clue as to the nature of consciousness; that it is partly a reactionary function of a living thing.

But this story gets more complex as you begin to move through natural history to animals. You will begin to find animals that develop the ability to have memory as speciation doesn't result often enough to make 'better' (more efficient) adaptations for a given species or set of species to survive in its environment. Memory could be classed as an adaptation, but I would hazard against such a classification because the addition of any complexity in an organism means that organism has to sustain the costs of that complexity whether times are fat or thin. A simple nervous system can still be a metabolic cost that is too high for some niches and as a result it's obvious why it has taken as long as it has for it to appear.

Furthermore, when one progresses through natural history even further to our times one begins to see lifeforms with brains similar to modern ones which have the ability to sort memories and adjust them. These brains appear simple, but in contrast to an animal with a simple nervous system its features are a magnitude greater in complexity. But now move even further forward in natural history and look at the different species that evolve even more to use these brains for other purposes: socialization. The ability to develop hierarchy in a social group for an animal is quite advantageous as it allows for a division of labor not seen as evident until modern industrialization. Whether it's the primates (humans), canines (wolves), or some other class of animal one can see that socialization in groups and the development of hiearchy allowed for these animals to survive better with less resources in a single area.

Ultimately, this is when the very concept of self-awareness or self-consciousness begins to appear and the very story that started with very simple chemistry and physics allows for the emergence of the ability to self-shape/determine. The point is that consciousness is an emergent property that exists in parallel to evolution as neither evolution nor consciousness seem to have any common ground beyond the accidental advantages resulting from consciousness in its orders of magnitude of utility for a given species. At the same time it can be said that consciousness is inevitable for all life forms at least in terms of adaptation, but I can't hazard that as the majority of the biomass of all life on Earth is outweighed by the single celled organisms by a wide margin. Thus, I don't believe in any sort of bio-determinism for consciousness.
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lisagurl

DNA is an instruction manual found in all living things. Where did it come from?
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armozel

Quote from: lisagurl on March 20, 2010, 03:29:59 PM
DNA is an instruction manual found in all living things. Where did it come from?

It emerged from the monomers over many generations. In fact, that's the point of the linked video. It shows that you can get to DNA without going directly to something like RNA. You can just start with simple biochemistry to get the building blocks required. If you go to the youtube page of the video it references that this has been shown to operate in a laboratory, apparently.
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lisagurl

Quoteit references that this has been shown to operate in a laboratory, apparently

You need to do more research the jury is still out on that one. I would not take any video as truth. Books from reputable publishers with plenty of foot notes and backup evidence would be required to even start a processes of accepting information. The web is mostly propaganda and spin.
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brainiac

Well... I think I'm thoroughly lost at this point.
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tekla

Well... I think I'm thoroughly lost at this point.

Me too.  I think I'm just going to sit in the corner and play with my colored pencils or something.  Reminds me that I stopped hanging out with people who were tripping balls on acid so I could avoid conversations like this.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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armozel

Quote from: lisagurl on March 20, 2010, 05:28:16 PM
You need to do more research the jury is still out on that one. I would not take any video as truth. Books from reputable publishers with plenty of foot notes and backup evidence would be required to even start a processes of accepting information. The web is mostly propaganda and spin.

It's in reference to the work of a scientist at Harvard Medical. You can try to say his work is invalid, but sorry I'm not going to lean your way nor is any science based on consensus. Consensus is just the cherry on top of a valid theory.
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BunnyBee

Quote from: tekla on March 21, 2010, 11:43:26 AM
Well... I think I'm thoroughly lost at this point.

Me too.  I think I'm just going to sit in the corner and play with my colored pencils or something.  Reminds me that I stopped hanging out with people who were tripping balls on acid so I could avoid conversations like this.
Lol :)

All I know is this whole thing is very simple to understand if you know fairy magic :P.
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tekla

this whole thing is very simple to understand if you know fairy magic

Which would be the second set of conversations that stopped me from hanging out with acid heads.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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BunnyBee

Quote from: tekla on March 22, 2010, 10:59:40 AM
this whole thing is very simple to understand if you know fairy magic

Which would be the second set of conversations that stopped me from hanging out with acid heads.
:P

Dewd, enough about how the color red looks, let's talk about how it sounds.
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tekla

and how blue really tastes, and how yellow feels, and, oh, look, shiny things!
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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brainiac

Does this mean we can talk about synesthesia now?
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tekla

Yeah sure.  I'll try to dig out of my little mind what it was like the last time I really did real, pure LSD and was sitting on subwoofer with my back against the mains while Gov't Mule played Cortez the Killer and Warren's guitar playing was an electric ride on a blazing rollercoaster of color, where each note had it's own hue, each chord it's own spectrum.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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BunnyBee

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tekla

It was a pretty good night as I recall.  Bernie Worrell (Funkadelic) was on organ which was a real treat.  The Wish You Were Here, Soulshine (my favorite), The Mule, Thorazine Shuffle, and War Pigs were pretty epic too.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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BunnyBee

Gov't Mule was really big in the south.  I saw them at several music festivals back in the days.

Er, I know that's sort of a digression from the original subject, but peeps were digressing when they were trying to stay on topic in this thread so I don't feel that bad =P.  Besides, we're having a discussion and this is where it lead, therefore it is on topic ...obviously ;).

PS- There's nothing dirtier than a Georgia hippie.
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tekla

PS- There's nothing dirtier than a Georgia hippie.

Oh, you ought to see our local variety.  Though most of them come from somewhere else, like New York, or... Georgia.

And back to the topic, I've never seen a mind function without a body - though Steven Hawkins might come close - but just reading through the Free Republic today makes me think there are a lot of bodies without functioning minds.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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FairyGirl

Quote from: Sandy on March 18, 2010, 07:05:19 AM
I wondered when we'd get to quantum physics and the anthropomorphic universe...

Who wants to present a book report on "The Dancing Wu Li Masters"?

-Sandy

Just as Dr. Lanza postulates that no physical "Theory of Everything" can be complete without taking consciousness into account, so can no theory attempting to solve the mind/body problem be complete without taking into account quantum physics. The seat of consciousness may very well be finally interpreted at the physical quantum level. I'm not naive enough to think that it won't, but it's interesting to get another scientific point of view (I'm not sure how closely pseudo-scientific sensationalist pablum such as Wu Li Masters fits that criterion, but it's not a fair comparison in any case) before dismissing any viable theory out of hand. I have no doubt that science will at some point find a direct physical correlation between the wetware and our consciousnesses; that is after all how this reality works. That still doesn't seem a convincing argument against consciousness being primary to me, being all Taoist as I am and all. :)

Girls rule, boys drool.
If I keep a green bough in my heart, then the singing bird will come.
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