I have been increasingly thinking that we mtf transsexuals may have unrealistic ideas about genetic women and womanhood in general.   Do we not tend to think that women are all sweetness and light, kind, compassionate and completely accepting of 'others'?   This highly romantic view in my opinion is potentially psychologically distressing to the mtf transsexual when the transsexual encounters real-life women and finds them quite often to be hateful, judgemental, terminally bitchy and even vicious!
I am a member of a womens' forum and I am shocked almost on a daily basis by the way the genetic women at this forum behave.  At the moment one woman is taunting another about her miscarriage, while that woman is accusing her tormentor by writing 'well at least my baby died naturally, you murdered your baby didn't you!!'
  This is the same forum where in the chatroom a certain member when ever I entered would turn the conversation around to what she called 'perverts'.  She would rant and rave about 'perverts' and then turn to me and say 'of course I don't mean you sweetie'.   This happened on at least four occasions, so she did mean me and was adding insult to injury by trying to insult my intelligence.  I have had other women at this forum tell me ' I don't want anything to do with you'.  Other women patronise me and dismiss my opinions, e.g when I defended a new male poster who the pack were attacking solely because it amused them I received an angry rebuke from one of the important members (this place is as hierarchical as any male forum) and I quote ' Sweetie it is time to pick a side and STICK WITH IT!'  In other words I was to blindly accept female ideas and values.  These 'values' I understood to be, always side with women, men are the enemy, never go against the sisterhood.   The attitude of the women at this forum to men who wander into the spider's lair is one of open scorn, everything a man posts is to be doubted and disputed and his welcome is chilly.  If a new woman member starts posting things like 'all men are cheating bastards', she will be greeted with 'hi sister this is the place to release all that anger about men'  Female anger is always justified however nasty, while men who are angry are verbally torn to pieces. 
This man that I mentioned above made what seemed to me a very reasonable argument, but he was howled down, his manhood was questioned, he was told that he was probably 'fat, ugly and impotent', needless to say this man never came back, and the pack have added another scalp to their swelling collection.
Are you appalled by what I have written?  Do you think these women are exceptions to the rule that genetic women are docile, gentle, and welcoming?   Of course much of what goes on at this womens' forum could be put down to bravado - you can say what you like on the internet, you can safely snipe at people while hiding behind your computer monitor.   However, what I sadly have come to believe - thanks to this forum -  is that genetic women have a very definite dark side, one that contrasts sharply with the 'sugar and spice and all things nice' attitude that we mtf's seem to have a desperate desire to believe. 
I have begun to hate that place with a passion, but I can't seem to leave, do you know why?   It is because two or three (I mean literally two or three) of the women there have been kind and supportive towards me and I am pathetically grateful towards them for this.  If I had any self-respect as a woman I would walk out and never look back.  However, a member just needs to refer to me as 'she' or 'her' and I am so grateful that I hang around trying to win the affection of the top girls(it is like being at high school at this forum) who either completely ignore me or are dismissively patronising towards me.
To end this post I want to thank you for listening to me vent and to make you think about just how realistic are your views and opinions on genetic women and womanhood in general.   Before going to this forum I viewed genetic women in a very rosy almost saintly light.  I sometimes wonder if I really am TS or am I someone who just cannot accept the cultural role(s) assigned to males by our repressive society.  That is maybe why I held such exceptionally romantic views about genetic women.  They would welcome me with open arms and completely without judgement.   My being seen and accepted by them as female wouldn't rely entirely upon me pleasing them at all times, and we would live in a place where it was endless summer and we would spend our days holding hands, supporting each other, going on picnics and arranging flowers. It would all be so deliciously and intoxicatingly feminine!  There is something infantile about all this.   
Perhaps these women have actually been doing me a favour by letting me seen into the heart of womanhood, something that they take pains never to reveal to men.  Perhaps they did accept me as a woman in a strange sort of way?

I do believe you might, with a bit of effort, be able to find a more congenial forum. It sounds like you found a real viper's nest. Why stay and accept such abuse? Can't you remain friends with the few pleasant ones via e-mail?

In my experience, online forums --of whatever sort-- are frequently a maelstrom of backbiting, gossip, prejudice, jealousy, pettiness, one-upsmanship and rage, all of which are all non-gender-specific characteristics. Rather than draw any conclusions regarding the nastiness of either men or women, I prefer to think that this reflects on the kind of people who obsessively habituate the online venues. 

~Lannie~

EDIT: Removed link

Some thoughts.

1. Of course women have a dark side, they are human.

2. All forums have a particular flavor. This forum that you speak of is particularly vile and hateful. Yes, there is a certain segment of women that revel in man bashing. Sounds like you found them.

3. You are known by the company you keep.

4. Women have a "sisterhood" of sorts; i experienced it recently with my own wife, who said that she wasn't about to treat me like some sort of girlfriend. After I pondered that statement for awhile i realized that she   meant that she wasn't about to share or was open to share her womanly experience with me. And she has talked about how her friends have essentially frozen out men at work that have tried to befriend her female coworkers and enter their sphere.

I think that you might consider finding a new forum to hang out on.

I would say yes, and also that genetic women have unrealistic views and expectations of genetic women and womanhood, so we're all in the same boat .

(you can replace woman with man and MTF with FTM and I would stand behind that as well.)

Of course we are overly sweet around here. We share a common foe that can kill upwards of 25% or more of us due to suicide.
I just need to look at my mom and sisters to see how mean natal girls can be to eachother. Rather vicious bitches.
I know quite a few natal women who are very nice and non confrontational.  sweet ladys.

So I personaly try and patern my behavior after the nice females and try and not be that vicious bitch my mom trains her children to be.

Hmm. I was never part of "the sisterhood" then. It must have just flown right past me.

I just see women being nasty to each other to fulfill an unhealthy fascination with social drama I don't quite understand.

Edit: Spelling error.

Quote from: Stephanie on March 23, 2010, 08:40:33 PM
I have been increasingly thinking that we mtf transsexuals may have unrealistic ideas about genetic women and womanhood in general.   Do we not tend to think that women are all sweetness and light, kind, compassionate and completely accepting of 'others'? 

I have never held that viewpoint and I never will.

This reminds me of a conversation I was having with a friend the other day, about how most of the things that we think of as "male" or "female" traits or behaviors are really just people things. Everyone does it, but it's more noticeable for most people in one group or another.

That said, it sounds like you really need to find a new forum to hang out on. It sounds like a really toxic environment, and those places can screw with your head something fierce (ask me how I know XD). If you can't bear to turn your back on the few people who make it worthwhile, maybe you could keep in touch through some other means? In the meantime, look for groups that can be supportive of you. 

I don't know if you knit or crochet or anything at all, but this ravelry group has been a godsend for me (http://www.ravelry.com/groups/this-is-what-a-feminist-knits-like). I think it's very telling that their number 1 rule is Be Excellent to Each Other. 

I don't think I have an unrealistic view or expectation of women.  After all I was married three times and I have seen first hand that women can be just as mean , vile and nasty as men. 

And like all forums there are those that can attract certain kind of people.  And some are very good support, while others are very good at having a bitch session.

For me I try to be the type of woman my Mother was.  She was a caring and understanding type of woman.  But she was, like I am, very opinionated.  I never really saw her being a bitch, but I think she could have been.

Are we all flowers and lace?  Heck No.  We are people, who have their own opinions.  For better or worst.  But on the net we tend to gravitate to those that are like minded.   If you don't care for the tone of that other forum, leave even if you have friends there.  They may just follow you out.

Quote from: SilverFang on March 23, 2010, 09:55:09 PM
Hmm. I was never part of "the sisterhood" then. It must have just flown right past me.

I just see women being nasty to each other to fulfill and unhealthy fascination with social drama I don't quite understand.

Amen to that. I gave up trying. There's no hope.

I'm not sure I have views and expectations of women or womanhood.

I expect people to be themselves.

I've seen both sides be pricks/bitches and douchebags. It seems to be a human flaw, not a gender based one. That being said, if you find yourself on a forum where everyone seems to enjoy attacking others, then it's definitely time to move on. Get the contact info/email ect of the few you DO enjoy talking with and talk to them via whatever means outside the forum.

Any forum I have joined in the past (and still to this day), if I get people treating me like crap, I don't go back.

I think some might have an unrealistic view simply because they don't know what it's like. I would have to say I know because I've experienced and been part of it. Women can be very mean and they will pack together. Sisterhood can be very, very strong.

Just watch the L-Word and times that by a thousand. LOL

A character named Max, a FTM person, once said it something like this about it (I love this, quoted from a website):

"I know something interesting about lobsters. You don't have to put a lid on the pot when you cook female lobsters, does anybody know why? Well, when you cook a pot of male lobsters--when they realize they're in this pot of boiling water, they all start totally freaking out, they're like '->-bleeped-<- we gotta get out of here!' so they start making these little ladders and helping each other get out of the pot so you have to put a lid on the pot to keep them inside. But female lobsters, you don't have to put a lid on the pot. Because once they realize they're in a pot of boiling water they all just start grabbing each other and holding each other, they're like, "If I'm gonna die, we're all gonna die," none of them wants to let any of the other ones get out of the pot, it's a real shame, isn't it?"

- Edit: -

I should also make mention that being a woman isn't all bad. And sisterhood can be your greatest, and most cherished connection. Finding the right women to hang around is important, too. Also, your friends will stick with you. I've been involved in many girl fights and I've had friends stick by me and even fight with me.  I'll be honest, I know how to socialize very well with a group of women because of experience being with groups of women -- it's a great tool and sisterhood is an asset.

I don't think you can say "we mtf transsexuals" have any such group deficiency, I think such things depend too much on the social experiences of each individual. I have to agree with Natalie. Before I moved to Australia I shared a house with a natal woman and her natal female lover, whom I will be staying with again when I go back to the U.S. for my SRS in a few weeks. There is a group of about 6 other female friends we hang out with, we go out together, party together, gossip together, go shopping together, and try on each others clothes together. Any one of us would come to the rescue of any other, and in fact have done so on numerous occasions, especially when watching out for each other when we go out. It feels very nice and natural being a part of a "girl's club" like that, and yes I'll just say we have our own catfights from time to time, but I feel sorry for anyone who would try to start trouble with any of us when any of the others are around.

Quote from: Ashley4214 on March 24, 2010, 12:15:10 AM
I'm not sure I have views and expectations of women or womanhood.

I expect people to be themselves.

Well said, Ashley!

I don't think I'm looking to be some sort of ideal woman. I simply want to be myself, and that self believes in her heart that she's a woman. There are good and bad parts to any group of people, it's not specific gender. The important thing is to pick the traits you want others to see you in you and go with it. If you want to be a snarky bitch, then go for it! If you want to be sweet as you wanna be, then go for that, too! The point is, just be yourself!

There are no moral differences between the sexes - all men are not bastards, and women are not sugar and spice. But anyone who's had kids knows that there are gender differences which seem hardwired into most kids, irrespective of their socialization (tho we, of course, are the living proof that those differences are not absolute) ... Little boys are, by and large, much more openly competitive than girls, more physically boisterous, more likely to have physical fights, but also faster to resolve conflicts and get along as a group. Girls are capable of being much sweeter, more thoughtful and more emotionally connected with one another ... But precisely because their conflicts are less open, they can be much deeper, more toxic and more emotionally hurtful. Girls are also much more detailed in their critical judgements of one another. A boy will just say another kid is dumb or gross, or whatever. A girl will notice the way an enemy (who may have been her friend the previous day) dresses, does her hair, talks, etc, and have something bad to say about it.

And guess what ... Nothing changes!! For good and bad alike!!

O_o

Hm. On a related note, I think that a lot of trans men take a dim view of cis guys. It's like we trans guys are better men than cis men because we were brought up female and don't have all of those nasty male characteristics like aggression, competitiveness, obsession with our penises, etc. I really do think that a lot of trans men are anti-male. This might be especially true of guys who came from lesbian communities, I guess.

Quote from: Stephanie on March 23, 2010, 08:40:33 PM
I have been increasingly thinking that we mtf transsexuals may have unrealistic ideas about genetic women and womanhood in general.   Do we not tend to think that women are all sweetness and light, kind, compassionate and completely accepting of 'others'?

lol Too funny Stephanie! No Illusions here! I know it may be a somewhat touchy subject as well but ever hear of "Lesbian Bed Death"? I have learned to positively dislike *womankind* in general (go figure & of course there's always exceptions!) and which is why I'd rather, if needs be, sleep alone than give up completely on the prefered company of MEN!

Can ya PM me a link to the site? Could use a good laugh promise I won't mention yer name!

Ever see this? Why women are to blame for killing off real men? Are WE just one glaring example of what this article is taking about or has there indeed been something lost on the great "battlefield of the sexes" and are we by nature simply more attuned to what Men Really Want?

What Women Want Now & The Second Most Beautiful Girl in New York

Here are some of my thoughts on this;

1. A 'sisterhood' of women simply doesn't exist, at least not in this context.

2. There is no 'brotherhood' of men either.

3. I don't get along with someone else just b/c we are the same nationality, why would gender be any different? (i.e. things that aren't choices don't make for good bonds)

4. There are mean and nasty people out there, and there are great people out there, on all spectrum of gender.

5.Gender stereotypes aren't good, but they do turn out to be true about as often as they are false. So I don't mind falling into a few, and not in others.

6. Women may not always be nice and they may be downright cruel to you, at least they are alot less likely to be violent toward you, kill you or rape you. This isn't conjecture but statistics. It doesn't mean a woman won't try and hurt you, just odds are you are safer around women than men; which is reason enough for me to prefer their company.