You walk into a prospective employer's office to apply for a job.  The employer looks at you and identifies you as transgender.  You are told,

"It is against my religious beliefs to hire anyone who; is gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual, of any other religious denomination than mine, wears makeup..."
and the list goes on.

Is that employer within their rights to deny you employment because of their religious beliefs?

I work at an anglican school - where there are tons of rules for 'religious' reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with christianity - there are religions and there are opinions/prejudices wearing religious clothes.

Whether or not they can depends on where you live.

Whether or not they should is a nuanced subject. For instance, I think that if you're hiring a priest/pastor, rabi, imam, or filling another position with explicitly religious responsibilities, you should be free to demand that the person be of the appropriate religion and be qualified for the job in accordance with what the religion demands.

But that doesn't mean that you should be able to cloak your personal prejudices in religious words; if you're responsible for screening potential Anglican priests, for instance, you shouldn't get to turn them away because they're black and you're personally prejudiced against black people due to your own interpretation of the Bible (substitute gay/transgender/female/whatever as you prefer).

And if you're hiring for a job that doesn't have explicitly religious duties, you shouldn't get to discriminate. If you're hiring a janitor, it shouldn't matter whether you're a church or a bank - your religion has no bearing on your applicants' qualifications to clean bathrooms.

As much as it pains me to say it, I think it depends on the job.  If it is a job where religion plays any role (church, synagogue, mosque, other place of worship or religious organization), I believe that the religious beliefs of that place of worship or organization should be allowed to play a role in the hiring of ANY of it's employees.

Even if you are just applying to be a janitor, I think these places have the right to decide whether or not the potential employee lines up with religious beliefs of employer.

A church isn't the only place to clean toilets.  If the potential janitor can't find a job there, I'm sure there's a gas station or fast food joint nearby that won't care how they identify, who they sleep with, or what god they pray or don't pray to.

If the job is not with a religious organization, then it is a personal opinion and can make the hiring person liable.  And thus the organization.

But if the organization is a religious one, then you can be held to their beliefs.  After all you would most likely be Catholic to work at a church.

If the job requires expertise in a specific area, such as doctor having an MD or an attorney having a JD, then of course, only certain people should be considered.  But if a person satisfies the job requirements I don't think a religious organization has the right to say, "You're not Catholic so we won't hire you."

Quote from: Adio on March 24, 2010, 06:20:26 PMEven if you are just applying to be a janitor, I think these places have the right to decide whether or not the potential employee lines up with religious beliefs of employer.

A church isn't the only place to clean toilets.  If the potential janitor can't find a job there, I'm sure there's a gas station or fast food joint nearby that won't care how they identify, who they sleep with, or what god they pray or don't pray to.

First of all, I know for a fact there were non Catholics working positions, such as janitor, at the Catholic church I frequented.  You don't have to be Catholic (or of any other faith) to perform janitorial duties well.

Aida, by saying such things as a person can find a job somewhere else is treading on thin ice.  In effect that statement is discriminatory and can be used against a job applicant in more ways than just in religion.  Once you permit discrimination in one area, you open the door for it to be permissible in other areas. 

Personally, I believe discrimination is wrong, no matter who does it, no matter why.

I haven't cast my vote yet because I am still pondering about this. So, if it is okay for someone to discriminate against you because of their religious beliefs does that mean it would be okay for %90+ of the planet to discriminate against us? Then I started thinking. Can you discriminate against someone who is religious. The answer in the US is no. So, maybe we should make a new religion. 

I know non-Catholics who have taught at Catholic Schools, and non-Jewish persons who worked for the JCC here, so it does happen.  But a lot of jobs like church secretary, janitor, maintenance and the like tend to be held for people who belong to the parish (or congragation, or temple et. all.) who need the work.

But, first of all, churches and such organizations (like the Boy Scouts/Girl Scouts) have special exemptions written into the law which specifically allows them to discriminate on such a basis.

Second, the small business deal (under 50 employees) provides great latitude in such areas also, so its very hard to sue them.  Larger companies would not care, or have other ways to get at that info without asking such a question.

Third, yeesh, I'd hardly be happy working for someone like that in the first place, so for me it would be 'good to know, I'm outta here!"

I believe in religious freedom, not just for some, but for everyone. This means that you're free to believe that "I" am going to hell, but I'm also free to believe that you are.
You aren't allowed to treat me as if my beliefs are false and yours are true because mine are just as allowed as yours are and I am not allowed to treat you as if your beliefs are false and mine are true.

This means that you aren't allowed to discriminate against me based on your religion as that would again be a matter of religious freedom.
By discriminating against someone for religious reasons you are treating your religious beliefs as true and that other person's as false.

It's imposing on the rights of others for your own personal comfort. Always bad.

Even if you're an employer and I'm a "prospective" employee.

I'm just curious.  Why would someone want to work at a place that doesn't really want you there anyway but because of anti-discrimination laws "has" to hire you based on your qualifications?  Would that not be an uncomfortable work environment?

For example, a prospective employee is transgender and applies to work in the office of a church.  This person is out about their status (has mixed documents, discloses for whatever reason, doesn't pass well, etc).  The church is not GLBT affirming and believes that transgender individuals are going against God's will.  BUT the prospective employee is a Christian and has all the qualifications.  Because of anti-discrimination laws in that city/state/country, the employer has no choice but the hire this person. 

How comfortable of a situation would that be for the new employee, knowing that their employer is against something that is fundamental to their person?  Would it be worth it?

In my opinion, no, it wouldn't be. 

If you are the most qualified person for the job, then you should get the job.

I don't know a single person who is so extremely masochistic that they want to work in an environment which is Obviously not accepting of them, so...

For example, a prospective employee is transgender and applies to work in the office of a church.  This person is out about their status (has mixed documents, discloses for whatever reason, doesn't pass well, etc).  The church is not GLBT affirming and believes that transgender individuals are going against God's will.  BUT the prospective employee is a Christian and has all the qualifications.  Because of anti-discrimination laws in that city/state/country, the employer has no choice but the hire this person. 


In the United States this is not the law, and it will never be the law.  Churches are exempt from most things, from taxes on down.

Quote from: tekla on March 25, 2010, 08:00:04 PM
For example, a prospective employee is transgender and applies to work in the office of a church.  This person is out about their status (has mixed documents, discloses for whatever reason, doesn't pass well, etc).  The church is not GLBT affirming and believes that transgender individuals are going against God's will.  BUT the prospective employee is a Christian and has all the qualifications.  Because of anti-discrimination laws in that city/state/country, the employer has no choice but the hire this person. 


In the United States this is not the law, and it will never be the law.  Churches are exempt from most things, from taxes on down.

She speaks the truth. Christians can find comfort that they will always have someone to discriminate against.

Quote from: Adio on March 25, 2010, 06:25:55 PMI'm just curious.  Why would someone want to work at a place that doesn't really want you there anyway but because of anti-discrimination laws "has" to hire you based on your qualifications?  Would that not be an uncomfortable work environment?

There are many people who have subjected themselves to uncomfortable and even hostile environments in order to bring about change.  Some have made the history books.

Quote from: Dana Lane on March 25, 2010, 03:11:58 PMCan you discriminate against someone who is religious.

The U.S. was founded in part to escape religious persecution.  A lot of people today interpret that to mean persecution for practicing christianity.  It's part of the majority rules mentality.

Quote from: Dana Lane on March 25, 2010, 08:12:26 PMChristians can find comfort that they will always have someone to discriminate against.

There's a mindset in certain christian organizations that they can do no wrong.  Look at what the catholic church allowed for decades, maybe even centuries: priests molesting children.

The pope is on the hot seat now because he allegedly was fully aware of the problem a decade ago and instead of bringing in local law enforcement or preventing the pedophiles from being in contact with children, he just moved them to another location where they found fresh victims.

So what does the RCC say about this?

QuoteVATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The Catholic Church is being unfairly singled out for criticism of sexual abuse of children by priests and will not tolerate campaigns to discredit it

Bill Maher said (paraphrased), if this was a day care center, they would have closed them down long ago and prosecuted every one of them.  But this is religion...

Yeah, this is religion, so we look the other way.

Well, it's time we stop treating religion like it is above the law.  If a criminal from another country, say, the Vatican, sends one of its employees over here and they molest children, we need to prosecute that person.  And if an employer denies someone employment and is breaking the law in doing so, we need to prosecute that employer.

And if we have laws in place that protect religion and religious institutions from following the law, we need to change the laws.

Quote from: Adio on March 25, 2010, 06:25:55 PM
I'm just curious.  Why would someone want to work at a place that doesn't really want you there anyway but because of anti-discrimination laws "has" to hire you based on your qualifications?  Would that not be an uncomfortable work environment?

Why would someone want to eat at a diner that doesn't really want you there anyway but because of anti-discrimination laws "has" to serve you? Would that not be an uncomfortable eating environment?

Why would someone want to sit at the front of a bus when the people around you really don't want you there but "have" to allow you to sit because of anti-discrimination laws? Would that not be an uncomfortable ride?

Why would someone want to play for a sports team that really doesn't want you there but because of anti-discrimination laws "has" to let you play based on your talent? Would that not be an uncomfortable experience?

Quote from: kyril on March 27, 2010, 02:05:33 PM
Why would someone want to eat at a diner that doesn't really want you there anyway but because of anti-discrimination laws "has" to serve you? Would that not be an uncomfortable eating environment?

Why would someone want to sit at the front of a bus when the people around you really don't want you there but "have" to allow you to sit because of anti-discrimination laws? Would that not be an uncomfortable ride?

Why would someone want to play for a sports team that really doesn't want you there but because of anti-discrimination laws "has" to let you play based on your talent? Would that not be an uncomfortable experience?

None of those (except maybe the sports team) pays you or is long term like a job.  And none has anything to do with religion.

Nice try though.

Thank God I don't live in the USA then!

Quote from: Adio on March 25, 2010, 06:25:55 PM
I'm just curious.  Why would someone want to work at a place that doesn't really want you there anyway but because of anti-discrimination laws "has" to hire you based on your qualifications?  Would that not be an uncomfortable work environment?

Um, because you need a job?  People don't always get to choose the job they want; this may be the only one available, especially with the economy lately.  Working in an unpleasant environment beats having no job, and thus no means of feeding oneself, paying the rent, etc.  Not everyone has the privilege of picking and choosing amongst workplaces.