Quote from: Dana Lane on March 29, 2010, 08:25:51 PM
I am pretty much okay with transsexual and even prefer that over transgender. Transgender is too broad of a term to adequately describe me. The other day I saw an article somewhere that referred to a woman as a post-op transgender. Talk about confusing people! What the hell does post-op transgender mean?

The main problem I have with "post-op transgender" is the "post-op" part. Frankly, why the hell is it anyone's business what "op" I might or might not have had? And it focuses attention on what's between my legs, which is really not something I want people speculating about. If they must, I'd rather they speculate about what's between my ears.

I want a broad, even vague term. I like "trans." To me, it's an advantage that it doesn't say much. It's my hope that it puts the focus on everything else about me.

Consider "woman": there are approximately 3.4 billion woman on the planet. But almost a billion are under the age of 13 -- hardly what you'd call "real women"! Should we specify "3.4 billion woman, but only about 2.5 billion post-menarche women"? I think that would be exceedingly dumb. You know what I mean when I say "3.4 billion women" -- it's simply half the world population.

The point is, specificity is necessary only when you're talking about something very specific; otherwise it's a red herring. I don't think "black" is a necessary modifier for "woman" when I'm talking about a black woman, unless race is the topic at hand (as in this sentence); similarly, I don't think "trans" or anything like it is a necessary modifier for "woman" when talking about me, unless non-normative gender experience or history is the topic at hand. And I don't think "post-op," "pre-op," or "non-op" are ever useful, except in a hospital setting. The only time outside a hospital setting when my surgical history is relevant is when I'm discussing surgery. And then, I'll specify what surgery I'm talking about.

But whatever you do, please don't call me a "transwoman." I really hate that. When I see it as one word like that, it seems to imply I'm something other than a woman, a "pseudowoman." No: I'm a woman, and I'm trans: I'm a trans woman.

Quote from: Alyssa M. on March 30, 2010, 11:23:13 AM
The main problem I have with "post-op transgender" is the "post-op" part. Frankly, why the hell is it anyone's business what "op" I might or might not have had?

I'm post op... post eye surgery op. 

Quote from: Alyssa M. on March 30, 2010, 11:23:13 AM
But whatever you do, please don't call me a "transwoman." I really hate that. When I see it as one word like that, it seems to imply I'm something other than a woman, a "pseudowoman." No: I'm a woman, and I'm trans: I'm a trans woman.

I hear 'ya, that's why almost everything in the wiki was changed to what I called the "trans_space_person agenda". that is, using the term trans to describe people in the state of transition, and not some sort of "special" class of person due to medical or legal issue of gender identity.

I suppose there could be a better way of describing people in transition, but for now i suppose trans <whatever> is good enough for now since it avoids the kneejerk reactions to the words sex and gender.

There's another word that's been used here that means peaceful and tranquil, it's... tranquil! It even has the "tran" part for the purists. "Oh it's just awful about all those tranquils pushing their tranquil agenda..." just doesn't have the same bite, does it? And it has the added benefit of having the initial "T", so "LGBT" wouldn't even have to be changed!

Personally I think finding a less stigmatic word is a noble idea, but I still prefer simply "woman" for myself. And I'm pretty much a "One Spirit" kind of girl...

I know I am female. But for the rest of my  life in certain circumstances I will be trans. Dr. visits, and sex come to mind imediatly. I imagine it must come up other places I am not thinking of. So no matter what there will always be a label needed at some point.

How about just simply; 'Trans.'

Hi Miniar

Another one for the list and an absolute classic.

The Halcyon Drift (Hooded Swan, series) by Brian Stableford

Kind regards
Sarah B

Quote from: FairyGirl on March 30, 2010, 12:29:11 PM
There's another word that's been used here that means peaceful and tranquil, it's... tranquil! It even has the "tran" part for the purists. "Oh it's just awful about all those tranquils pushing their tranquil agenda..." just doesn't have the same bite, does it? And it has the added benefit of having the initial "T", so "LGBT" wouldn't even have to be changed!

Lol, prolly my favorite so far.

But I'm with Alyssa, "trans" is about as simple as you get.  If you want to specify sex, just tack it on the end, much like gay man, etc.  So much easier than male-to-female blah blah blah.  For goodness sakes, when you come up with a label for something you have to consider peoples' chipmunk-like attention spans.  A label shouldn't sound like a darned run-on sentence.

I think once transition is finished, and you've traversed sexes, then trans doesn't much apply, but honestly I won't be a fan of any labels other than woman when I reach that point anyway.  Um, not that I'm a fan of them now either lol.

PS- I don't feel transgender describes me in the least.  My gender has always been static, and I'm certainly not in the process of crossing from one gender to the other.  Between the ears I've always been a girl.  I suppose for some transgender would be at least technically accurate, but not me.

Regarding the word "trans"... Does it have any negative stigmas attached to it?

Quote from: FairyGirl on March 30, 2010, 12:29:11 PM
There's another word that's been used here that means peaceful and tranquil, it's... tranquil! It even has the "tran" part for the purists. "Oh it's just awful about all those tranquils pushing their tranquil agenda..." just doesn't have the same bite, does it? And it has the added benefit of having the initial "T", so "LGBT" wouldn't even have to be changed!

You have some great points.  I guess, having used the word in my earlier posts might indicate I need to look under my nose next time. 

And I really like the term "tranquil agenda"!  I'd love to hear the phobes use that in a negative campaign against us. 

Quote from: Julie Marie on March 30, 2010, 06:34:11 PM

And I really like the term "tranquil agenda"!  I'd love to hear the phobes use that in a negative campaign against us. 

Yeah, "tranquil agenda" does have a great ring to it.

So, how did the last set (or the one before that) work out for us?  Yup.

It's not the words, words are just a collection of letters in a particular order.  It's how people perceive the words, what they come to mean, that matters.  Granted working on that is harder than inventing a new vocabulary, but it does produce real change.

Personally, I prefer to have no word.
Y'all can choose whatever word you like though.

Quote from: tekla on March 30, 2010, 06:47:35 PM
So, how did the last set (or the one before that) work out for us?  Yup.

It's not the words, words are just a collection of letters in a particular order.  It's how people perceive the words, what they come to mean, that matters.  Granted working on that is harder than inventing a new vocabulary, but it does produce real change.

^^^This.
Granted, people will avoid the words they don't like anyway. Still, there's no substitute for real change.

Language is what we do. There's no "right" answer, but each culture and each generation creates a different semantic environment for people to live in. This happens in every field of thought and human experience -- politics, music, sex, religion (or lack thereof), every academic field -- especially mathematical ones -- and more. So, no, it isn't of earth-shattering importance, but it is something that naturally happens, and it's best when it happens in a comparatively civil and positive manner, like this thread, rather than some of the slugfests that have happened around here before.

Hi Julie Marie

You said:

Quote from: Julie Marie on March 30, 2010, 10:53:59 AM
Would it matter if your employer labeled you and then fired you?  Would it matter if your family labeled you and walked out of your life?  Would it matter if people voting on your rights labeled you and denied you of the same rights as everyone else?

These three questions are red herrings in this debate.  Your topic "A New Term for Transgender - Any Ideas?" requires only new labels, not consequences of those labels.

People will always will have labels attached to them and the way other people say those labels or terms with other words or emphasis can and do imply negative connotations.

Kind regards
Sarah B

Since the term "gay" has been mentioned here.
The thing is, it's not used at all in my country. We use "samkynhneigður" (homosexual) or hommi/lesbía (self explanatory), and there's extremely little anti-gay sentiment over here.
Whereas, Gay is used over in the US a lot, and anti-gay sentiments are, well, "common" doesn't quite cover it.

Changing to the term Gay doesn't seem, as far as I can tell, to have stopped the abuse at all.

I don't believe a label update really will affect change either, but if I'm going to be labeled, I'd prefer one that didn't make me shudder and moreover was at least easy to say.  I don't think "trans" has any negative connotation to it, at least not any more than whatever new label we might take on would inherit.  All it means is to cross, basically.  Another thing I like about it is that it unifies all the different subcategories, which I think is good because, while there are differences in all of our experiences, we are all dealing with something very similar.

I don't believe that updating terms was a major factor in bringing the modest level of acceptance gays now enjoy, either.  For them, this tolerance was obtained through decades of visible activism, which eventually opened the door for certain pop culture phenomena like Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, which brought gays into mainstream living rooms, where most people finally realized that gay people were just people after all.  Fear of the unknown is usually behind hatred and discrimination.

Honestly though, I just can't see our community making big dents in society like that, simply because of how few trans activists exist.  The reasons are many, not the least of which is that even under the biggest umbrella we're such a tiny minority.  Also, most transpeeps, especially the least scary among us (from mainstream peeps perspective), would very much prefer to blend seamlessly into conventional society- something not possible for an openly gay person, i.e. a passable trans woman can live openly as a female without overtly upsetting conventions.  And I don't feel there is anything wrong with that either, in fact I'm sure that's the route I'll go if I can pull it off- being the wallflower that I am .

Kay as sort of nailed the problem -- while the number of known TGs is relatively small compared to G, L, and B, it actually covers many distinct groups of people.  The definition of TG is a reflection more of what one is not (gender is not congruent with the body) rather than what one is.  A more positive term is desirable, but there are multiple distinct affirmations to cover, and this seems to necessitate having many terms.

I'm somewhat inclined to support the idea of people simply being women/men/androgyne/whatever.  If you happen to be transsexual, that can offer a descriptive detail (and in unpleasant company, you may be forced to provide one), but male/female/androgyne/whatever remains the primary.  I don't know if "transsexual woman" is really satisfactory for a MtF, but the last word emphasizes what you want out there, and you can revert to this term when "woman" does not please your audience (without having to include "man" or "male" in it).

Modifiers (may use none or multiple): Transsexual, transgender(ed), trans-, intersexed, crossdressing, androgynous, gay, bisexual, straight, pansexual, asexual, etc...

Base words: Woman, man, androgyne, two-spirit, etc...

Syntax: [Modifier, Modifier, ...] [Base Word]
Example: Androgynous straight man

Maybe it's the different location and all... but does "transgender" really have that much of a negative stigma? I mean, enough of one that people are more biased against the word itself than the group they are refering to with it?

No, it's not 100% accurate from our expert perspective - but it's not deliberately offensive, it's not sexual, and it's not painting us as deviants or otherwise insane. I think we could do a lot worse.

Like others here, I also don't think the word "transgender" accurately describes my situation. However, when "Joe Bloggs The Government Paperwork Jockey" wants to know why my title is Mr, I look like a man, but my birth cert says "female", it's a handy 3 second explanation that gets enough of my point across for him to be satisfied without me having to tell him my life story.

To people I know and care about, I can always just explain my situation without using any "trans" or "GLBT" political terms at all.

I don't think terms matter all that much beyond diagnostics, and finding other people sharing similar experiances (in the community) - and we have many more refined terms for that sort of thing.

The main people that hurl hatred at us are rightwing control freaks, and they'd still hate us regardless of what we were called. Hell, they still say gay like it's a bad thing!

Quote from: Kaelin on April 01, 2010, 05:38:29 AM
The definition of TG is a reflection more of what one is not (gender is not congruent with the body) rather than what one is.

This may be what transgender has come to mean, but the prefix "trans" has very little to do with congruence.  It means across, through, between... things like that.  Things which (for me) don't apply to my gender, which is and always will be fixed, and that is why I have always felt like that word is often a misnomer in the way it is used.

I may be crossing into a new gender role that fits my gender better, but I don't want to be called a transgenderrole, do you?

There are other nitpicky problems with the word, but I'll spare you those .

I just shorten it to Trans and say trans people.  That way, I'm being respectful of both transsexual and transgender people, without distinguishing them (unless it's necessary).

One thing that irks me a little, I think I'm alone in this though, is transman/transwoman.  I don't really have a beef with it, but I think there's too much emphasis on the trans and not enough emphasis on the man.

Transman sounds sort of like Trans Am, which is fairly macho as far as cars go.  I don't know if that's necessarily a bad thing (unless you see people using these cars to... compensate for something).