Quote from: Arch on April 07, 2010, 08:04:08 PM
Heh. Maybe not, but we do still have terms like foreman/forewoman, Englishman/Englishwoman, let's see, tribesman/tribeswoman, and quite a few others that tend to come in gendered pairs. Then there's ombudsman (now, on my campus, altered to the vastly more cumbersome but highly PC ombudsperson), adman (I've never seen adwoman, but it might exist), mailman (still in common use, although the PC term, even for males, is the two-word term mail carrier)...me, I'm still waiting for manhole cover to become personhole cover. Which, I suppose, is beside the point but worth mentioning.

English. Gotta love it.

Regardless, trans woman is correct. Transwoman is incorrect.

Ok this thread is becoming congested and off topic. This wasn't mean to be a debate on who has more privileges, why someone would want to give up their male privileges, or why people aren't fighting harder for said privilege. Or even on if the use of Transwomen is correct or incorrect (both uses of transwomen or trans women are correct BTW).

Let's try to stay on topic, and remember to express our opinions as just that, opinions. This isn't about who is right or wrong and proving a point.

And now back to your regularly scheduled programing...

Holy, crazy thread going all wacko all over. o_0

Of course I know that there's no such thing as a free lunch. I was just being cheeky. 

I would think that one of you would think having a guy buy lunch would be a privilege and that would make it a free lunch.

I know I have bought more than a few.

As rejennyrated could tell you -- people who don't think there is anything like a free lunch have never worked in showbiz.  Particularly the movies.  Yikes, Craft Services puts out so much food that I don't know anyone who has ever done a movie and not gained weight.

Quote from: LordKAT on April 08, 2010, 09:25:14 AM
I would think that one of you would think having a guy buy lunch would be a privilege and that would make it a free lunch.

I know I have bought more than a few.

Be careful not to conflate 'privilege' with benevolent sexism.
I can pay for my own lunch - I earn more than any of the men I've had lunch with.

Is chivaly benevolent sexism?  I don't think it has to be. Especially when there is a balance to it. For example, my partner can buy me lunch all the time, but in return I'm gonna pamper them and treat him like a little lost puppy or delicate flower when they get the man flu. That is my female privilege. I actually really enjoy that aspect of being a woman.

I like men opening doors for me, or helping me carry my drum kit. It is nice, and they are stronger than me and carry my kit much more easily than I do. I feel respected and valued as a result. I don't care if it says I am weaker, cause the reality is I probably am (actually I am freakishly strong but they don't know that).

As soon as I started wearing skirts my band mates started to help me move my kit about. I don't think they even realise they do it. I think that is female privilege. My privilege is also that I now have to listen to a lot more of their relationship woes, which I like to do. So it works for me and them.

Actually, come to think of it I love it when Butch lesbians treat me the same way a lot of men do. Got to love the butch dykes. I do.

Quote from: casorce on April 08, 2010, 03:42:30 PM
Be careful not to conflate 'privilege' with benevolent sexism.
I can pay for my own lunch - I earn more than any of the men I've had lunch with.

So you admit that women today can and often do earn more than men, then? Glad we're agreed on that ...

Quote from: Nicky on April 08, 2010, 03:53:30 PM
Is chivaly benevolent sexism?

In my opinion, it certainly is.
The actions of chivalry state that women are weak and incapable, that they are second class citizens and that this behaviour is a kick-back for being treated like second class citizens.


"Okay, now you HAVE to cook me dinner."

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Post Merge: April 08, 2010, 04:04:15 PM

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Quote from: Carlita on April 08, 2010, 03:55:44 PM
So you admit that women today can and often do earn more than men, then? Glad we're agreed on that ...

I got my job by virtue of white, cis male privilege.

I don't know, from my perspective I feel like I am treated as a first class citizen, it feels more like respect. Certainly this behaviour has its origins in what you are talking about.

But I think that is a good deal, you protect me, shelter me, treat me like a goddess and I will definitly cook you dinner, it will be a pleasure. (and I will make more money than you regardless)

I think chivalrous women are hot. Give me a girl that buys me dinner, opens doors for me and holds my purse, and I will simper and smile and get them a beer and do most of the cleaning. But I will also go out hunting and kill stuff and change the oil in the car. That is my privalege, I can have it like I want it.

Quote from: Nicky on April 08, 2010, 04:07:04 PM
I don't know, from my perspective I feel like I am treated as a first class citizen. Certainly this behaviour has its origins in what you are talking about.

I'd speculate that you feel that way because you're still in the 'honeymoon' phase of being a woman.

QuoteBut I think that is a good deal, you protect me, shelter me, treat me like a goddess and I will definitly cook you dinner, it will be a pleasure. (and I will make more money than you regardless)

Whereas I want mutual respect; you protect me, I protect you. You treat me like a goddess, I treat you like a king. I cook you dinner, you cook me dinner, etc.

I'm in no honeymoon baby. But maybe you are right, at some point the grim reality of having men open doors for me will hit and it will make me feel terrible.

But I think we are talking about the same thing. It is all about balance, mutual respect. You scratch my back how I like and I will scratch yours how you like it. I think we just like our backs scratched in different ways is all.

For example, I prefer to do the cooking. I'm better at it than my exwife and take pleasure in it. As a tradeoff she does other things like the washing. It works for us. 

Quote from: Nicky on April 08, 2010, 04:23:26 PM
I'm in no honeymoon baby. But maybe you are right, at some point the grim reality of having men open doors for me will hit and it will make me feel terrible.

Or feel useless, second class, worthless, ineffectual, weak, powerless or exploited.
I understand that having a door held open because you are female is a heady feeling, as it affirms that people are seeing you as female.
But shouldn't everyone hold doors open for other people, regardless of gender?

What disadvantages have you found from being female? What privileges have you lost?

casorce, perhaps this thread will be more up your alley- https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,73133.0.html

Quote from: Osiris on April 08, 2010, 04:47:16 PM
casorce, perhaps this thread will be more up your alley- https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,73133.0.html

No.

Quote from: casorce on April 08, 2010, 04:40:42 PM
Or feel useless, second class, worthless, ineffectual, weak, powerless or exploited.
I understand that having a door held open because you are female is a heady feeling, as it affirms that people are seeing you as female.
But shouldn't everyone hold doors open for other people, regardless of gender?

What disadvantages have you found from being female? What privileges have you lost?

I know you like to think I am in fairytale land, and I know that you think things will be the same for me as it were for you. Bad assumption. Admittedly the woman thing is slightly more recent though. But I have always enjoyed it when people open doors for me etc. Been over a decade now, still has not worn thin. I love it. When do you think that will wear off?

Lets face it. You are a big strong woman that prides herself on her strength. Anything that might go against that view is going to rub you the wrong way. I don't have the same view on things.

Um, disadvantages? None so far. How about you?

I think people should open doors if they are nice, and not if they are not - or open doors if they think someone is nice, and not if not.

In fact everyone 'round these parts seems to a) hold doors for everyone, or b) holds them for no-one. 

Good manners are just that. Good manners. They are the oil of society. They don't reflect inferiority; except to people who do not understand good manners.

Cindy

I haven't really experienced the whole privileges gained yet but I mean I think this is a variance thing.  Some people are considerate (ie holding doors regardless if a person is close etc) and some are not.  I don't think gender is as central to some of these things as we would imagine since for most people it would just be something courteous

From my own experiences, men hold the door open differently for men and women.  Pre-transition it would be more of a push open so that I can grab the door handle and they will hold it for a much shorter length of time.  When I went fulltime, men hold the door open longer and even hold the door wide open, letting me go through first.  I've never gotten the latter pre-transition except when I am carrying something heavy.