I'm sure most of you have encountered this many times, so you probably won't find it as outrageous as I do. But I'm going to set it out anyway.

I have a very close family member who I consider well-advanced in transitioning but still pre-op. "She" is of course MTF but I am so mad for their outright prejudice that I have told them I refuse to call them by the proper noun they ask to be identified by because I am so angry with them.

This person is a total racist, xenophobe and homophobe yet still feels entitled to all the protections the civil rights movement gave us. It's as if they were asleep for the last 40 years.

I have patiently tried to explain (what I belive to be) the interelation between the feminist movement, the civil rights movement and the current push for gay equality to transgendered rights, to no avail.

This person still wants to look at people in terms of who is ->-bleeped-<- or not and what color skin you have. On top of that, they are Libertarian and living off welfare.

Excuse me, but how the ->-bleeped-<- can you be so stupid and how can you claim the liberty to walk around looking like an old middled-aged cross dressing fool and sleep at night?

Sorry if I offended anyone...just had to vent a little.

Quote from: Princess Phoebe on April 14, 2010, 09:52:11 PM
Excuse me, but how the <not allowed> can you be so stupid and how can you claim the liberty to walk around looking like an old middled-aged cross dressing fool and sleep at night?

How you can claim how stupid a person is and then follow it up with a stupid statement is beyond me.
Everyone has the right to 'claim' liberty to be who they are. Regardless of how stupid you may deem it to be. Your very statement flies in the face of your 'explanation' of peoples rights, regardless of what those rights are. And you have no right to expect others to except your explanation as being right for them. I'm sure your explanation is crystal clear to you, but with that attitude toward who you have tried explain this to, I'm sure that there is a certain lack of credibility in their eyes.

My bad, I really should be more tolerant of those people. After all, in between the lynchings they have done some much for the transgendered community.

/sarcasm

You have expectations of them doing something between lynchings?

BTW, and really just out of my own curiosity, what were you doing during the civil rights movements in this country? Just trying to get a viewpoint of where you're coming from.

It can be a difficult thing, tolerance. It's a learned thing for most and many need to take it out and give it a polish every so often, so it shines like it should.

It might be interesting what your original posting is about, maybe a little more objectively, when you settle down some. You sound like you have a lot to say about civil rights and how they can be interrelated. I know it was an angry moment there, but toned down, it could be an interesting thread.

Ativan

By refusing to use proper pronouns to make a point you are just going to make yourself look like a hypocrite, that in itself discredits your argument. Lead by example, calling this person a he isn't going to make them stop being a homophobe.

Quote from: Jeatyn on April 15, 2010, 02:21:03 AM
By refusing to use proper pronouns to make a point you are just going to make yourself look like a hypocrite, that in itself discredits your argument. Lead by example, calling this person a he isn't going to make them stop being a homophobe.

x2 

It might be worthwhile to point this person who you say is racist in the direction of a popular online video website (not sure if I can say the name of it, but it begins with a Y). Tell them to search for "Former Ku Klux Klan leader Johnny Lee Clary".
It's an interview with the former leader of the KKK, and it's quite funny to watch, because despite all his hatred and racism, 1 man woke him up to how stupid racism is, how irrelevant the color of skin is as at the end of the day, we're all people. The one man who he talks about how he tried to make his life a misery of, woke him up to leaving the KKK and is now very good friends with him. If a leader of the KKK can change his ways, there may be hope for the person you know.
You can look him up on wikipedia too, he now gives talks against racism.

I dunno.  I think this person might need a hard lesson in discrimination.  Being racist and anti-gay when your transgender is a special kind of ignorance that I've never encountered before.

Quote from: Jester on April 15, 2010, 10:27:55 AM
I dunno.  I think this person might need a hard lesson in discrimination.  Being racist and anti-gay when your transgender is a special kind of ignorance that I've never encountered before.

I agree.

Quote from: Jester on April 15, 2010, 10:27:55 AM
I dunno.  I think this person might need a hard lesson in discrimination.  Being racist and anti-gay when your transgender is a special kind of ignorance that I've never encountered before.

I think your condemming someone based on a rash and angry statement. You've just fallen into a vigilante mentality that the OP wanted you to. You have yet to hear the other side of the story, have based your assumption on hearsay, and are ready to teach this person a lesson. You've never encountered before? Maybe because it came from a rash and stupid statement? Do you honestly believe that this person is a threat that has to be dealt with? It sounds more like (if true) someone who may have psycological issues and needs help. But again, consider the source. Some one in a bad mood that no matter how much effort is being made, is blown off on the issues.
What you say could be true, but it isn't likely the case. And what I say is not neccessarily true either. That is not enough information to make sense of it. I left it open for the OP to elaborate for this reason. Lets hope it isn't really the case. It would be very sad indeed.

Ativan, I see nothing in Jester's post that advocates vigilantism or identifies this person as "a threat that has to be dealt with." Jester simply points out that she THINKS this person MIGHT benefit from learning about discrimination...if this person really is as biased as the OP indicates (or even a sizable fraction thereof), then it would be a "hard lesson" indeed.

Please, folks, let's keep things in perspective here. Racism and homophobia are hot-button issues as it is.

You're right....I read far more into Jesters statement than what was actually written. My sincere apologies Jester.  And it is the hot button type of thing that got me going. The original post floored me to say the least. It took me a while to even think of the whole thing as having psychological issues that should be dealt with.
In that frame of mind, I read Jesters statement. I just did what I warned about. I put in information that I wanted to be there, and used it. I turned Jesters statement into something I wanted it to be. And it wasn't.
I again apologize. I'll try to keep myself in check, in the future. Especially on this thread. I would still like to see more information on this. Like I said, it pretty much floored me.
Thanks Arch, for pointing out my errors.
A much humbler Ativan

Ativan, you were defending tolerance. I'll support that sentiment any day.

 :)Thanks!

Now back to polishing my tolerance so it will shine again.......  So hard to get this tarnish off....

In my search for a support group, I've come across cross-dressers who are prejudice against TGs, TGs who are prejudice against CDs, gays who oppose TG/CDs in general and even one lesbian who claimed that there's no such thing as a gay man as Tops will "screw anything" and Bottoms were really TG's to afraid to admit it. I'm still scratching my head at that one.

I guess the point is, these are very hot button issues often with little to no rationale behind them. Bigotry makes no sense to me and probably never will, especially bigotry of one minority group by another. Some things I will never understand, like being a gay Republican.

It's up to us to lead the way.  We cannot attach ourselves to destructive emotions.  We cannot let their intolerance become our intolerance.

If you want to try to make some headway, find an analogy they can relate to and talk to them.  Just remember, if they don't respond the way you want, it is better to accept that than fight it.  You can't change the world but you can try.  Just don't get lost doing it.

Ativan, you came looking for a fight. Sorry I can't give it to you. But I will say this:

You mistake the "right to liberty" we all have in the absence of being convicted of a crime with the right to "claim the liberty to walk around looking like an old middled-aged cross dressing fool and sleep at night" while denying anyone else the same rights begot by the Civil Rights movement.

There was a time when white people didn't like black people sitting at the front of the bus, or drinking from the same water fountain, or sitting at the same lunch counter as them, and it wasn't as long ago as you might think.

Does it matter if I was actually sitting there and saw it with my own eyes? No of course not. But as long as you ask, yes, I am old enough to have remembered and experienced it.

There was a time when women with doctorate of law degrees could only get jobs as legal secretaries because men didn't think they should be lawyers, and it wasn't as long ago as you might think.

There was a time when the disabled couldn't enter a courthouse or any other public building because they couldn't get up the steps, and it wasn't as long ago you might think.

There was a time when women had to seek out back-alley abortions or carry to term and give birth to children they didn't want, and it's not over yet.

On top of all that, the transgendered are pretty much expected to "just live with it" for the most part.

Why is this? Because of tolerance...tolerance of the ignorant.

It's one thing to be tolerant of the ignorant, but quite another to sit and listen to a family member who is racist, xenophobic and homophobic in the face of all evidence to the contrary. I suppose there are some who can excuse this. I'm not one of them.

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Post Merge: April 16, 2010, 02:01:28 PM

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I should also mention that it's completely different to be tolerant of the ignorant while being a coward and running away from the forces of hate and bigotry just to save your own skinny ass after so many have died defending the same rights you now take for granted.

But if that's your gig and Susan will let you do it...eh, it's not my concern.

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Post Merge: April 16, 2010, 03:16:35 PM

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Quote from: ativan on April 16, 2010, 12:12:40 AM
:)Thanks!

Now back to polishing my tolerance so it will shine again.......  So hard to get this tarnish off....

Polish your sense of discretion, if you have one. You're a complete shame to the TG community. Don't do us any favors by opening your mouth, thank you very much.

 

Can't we all be friends?

Sorry, I should have let this nonsense go.

Ad hominem attacks are not okay, Princess Phoebe.

I know, and I know better than to lower myself to Ativan's level. My apologies to the community.

*but one more thing: if you present to me as TG and then go whining about affirmative action, or hate crimes legislation then I'm calling you out.

and if you are on welfare or social security and then go whining about "socialism" and the government taking everything over then I'm gonna call you out.

Call it an ad hominen if you want, but we all know it's stupid as hell. I won't apologize for that.

and finally, if anyone directly attacked anyone personally here it was Ativan calling me stupid in his retort. But nobody challenged him.