Quote from: anonymous

Are they your own three pics? you look awesomely female and the best person in transition I've seen on here for ages!

I don't want to seem like I am criticizing the person who posted this.  I do want to seem like I am criticizing this type of thinking.  It leads to Hierarchy of Passability issues, that I personally think, do not belong in our community.

The "best person in transition" is you.  Everybody has their own transition.  Somebody who starts out a long way from passable and gets close, has come alot further than somebody who started with feminine features and passes perfectly.

Moreover, there is alot more to transition than looks.  In my opinion, I do not pass in photographs, but I pass nearly 100% in public; because of the other elements of my transition, posture, mannerisms, walk, gestures, speech, etc.  People call me beautiful.

I know transwomen who seem to pass completely, until they open their mouth, and you know they don't think like a woman.

Or does Hierarchy of Passability belong in our community, because Hierarchies of Attrictiveness exist in female communities?

Isn't your avatar from the Star Trek Original Series? It looks like that era of film. Goodness.

I think that the passability hierarchy is detrimental to the trans community. It makes being trans into an odd pissing contest of sorts. There's nothing wrong with being attractive and passable and pursuing attractiveness, but attractiveness and passability are aside from the point; the point of transition is to express your own gender identity. The only reason why transwomen are motivated to pass is because many people believe, consciously or subconsciously, that transwomen are not "real women," and we wish to avoid triggering that in people around us. If people just accepted that transwomen are women, nobody would need to attempt to pass in the first place. Ergo, the passability hierarchy privileges those who are most able to avoid the wrath of bigots, not those who are tapping into the special, secret "essence of trans-ness" somehow. It's great that some people are able to fly under the radar in bad situations, but they're not somehow "more trans" or in any way better than people who can't pass or genderqueer types like me who have no interest in doing so.

Everyone is in various stages of their journey

Some are just beginning, others are somewhere in the middle of things. Still others are completed and continuing on with their lives

The only thing that makes one higher than the others is what they're smokin'... LOL

Sorry... Couldn't help but throw one in there

Genetic Women judge each other's physical appearance, and there are genetic women who say it's wrong to do that.  Some people are vain, and some people aren't.

passing has a lot to do with transition O_o

Sorry to sound cliche but that's just life. People are like that in every walk of life trans or not, and then there are people that aren't and good for them. Whether or not this hierarchy belongs is irrelevant.

I think we have to distinguish (as so often) between what we might like to be the case and what actualy is the case.

It would be great if we lived in a world in which individuals felt confident enough to present themselves in whatever gender role they saw fit, irrespective of the degree to which they conformed to the social/physical/aesthetic norms associated with that gender, and society was tolerant enough to accept them.

It would be great ... but that ain't the world in which we actually live.

The truth is that human beings are judgmental. For example, reecnt research suggests we make assumptions about a person's intelligence, trustworthiness and likability within tenths of a second of seeing their face for the first time. So this is a reaction that is hardwired into us.

Most humans also like to conform to the norms of their gender, culture, class, etc.

And finally, women are incredibly judgmental about one another's appearance: face, hair, figure, clothes ... it's all noted, assessed and ranked ... That's something that starts with little girls in kindergarten and it keeps going until menopause at least, and for some women till the day they die.

For all those reasons, the MTF transsexual faces an incredibly high barrier to acceptance. So being worried or even obsessed about passing is a completely natural and rational response to our actual situation in the world as it actually is.

My question, therefore, is this: when someone comes on here and asks, 'Do I pass?' what is the best, kindest answer? Many times I've seen girls who clearly don't pass being told that they do. The peopke complimenting them are, I'm sure, sincerely trying to be kind and supportive. They empathize with the person who's asking the question and they want to help. But is it fair to tell someone they pass when they don't?

By way of an analogy, I have a rule with my literary agent and editors, which is that I want them to be as savagely critical of my work as humanly possible. I like every possible criticism to be anticipated and dealt with. That way, when my work enters the public domain, it has the best possible chance of acceptance. I've learned the hard way how much it hurts when people in private say they love my work, because they're trying to be kind ... and then I get slaughtered by critics.

So might it be best to accept the harsh realities of life, and the 'hierarchy of passability' and give honest, tough, well-meant critiques in private, to prevent people being hurt (physically, sometimes) in public?

I don't think the existence of a passing hierarchy within the community has its origin there.  I think it comes from the mainstream pressure to conform to gender stereotypes and the consequences for not doing so - prejudice, discrimination, ostracization, hatred.

When someone says, "You are more passable than..." I think it is more of a compliment regarding reaching one's goals than it is saying you are better than everyone else.

Look at the threads here about stealth.  Many members insist on being as stealth as they can, some to an obsession.  Remove the social consequences and the stigma of being seen as a freak (or worse) and I'll bet a lot of that stealth stuff goes away.  But no one wants to walk out into society and call upon themselves ridicule, unless it's for some stunt.

On the other hand, I think it is important for us to be unafraid when we step into society.  And by getting society to see us as nothing more unusual than someone with red hair, we could achieve that.  Of course, doing that will take some brave pioneers who will get out there and show society being trans is no big deal.

I guess we gotta lotta work to do....

Quote from: mija on April 16, 2010, 04:28:39 AM
Sorry to sound cliche but that's just life. People are like that in every walk of life trans or not, and then there are people that aren't and good for them. Whether or not this hierarchy belongs is irrelevant.

Moral/ethical defeatism is for sociopaths and suckers. Trans people are able to live our lives to the extent that we can right now because of people who decided to stand up and take transphobia on, instead of just lolling about, sighing about how "that's just life" and we can't do anything about it.